MediTest
Submitted by mrhodes40 on Thu, 2005-11-10 15:16

This page is for all those who are using vitamin D supplementation as part of their protocol. It is clear that what medical people were taught and what appears to be true about vitamin d levels and human nutrition are different. Here is a wonderful presentation on vitamin D offered by a researcher.  Please be aware, this presentation requires a fast connection like DSL or cable.   It's essentially a DVD of a presentation with 68 slides offered alongside showing the research findings.This paper focuses on MS and vitamin D specifically "Vitamin D and Calcium Deficits predispose to MS"  This is a link out to pubmed.This incredible resource is an in depth look at vitamin D and all it's standard understanding though with inclusion of some of the newer findings, for example that it deters cancer.   It is also a good background of how vitamin d is used in the body for various functions and explains the tests available to check status.

Comments

Vitamin D and lungs.  Found this on the BBC website this morning. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4521060.stm Vitamin D could play a role in keeping the lungs healthy, research suggests. Patients with higher vitamin D levels in their blood had significantly better lung function, a University of Auckland team found in a study of 14,091 people..............................  

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

More from the BBC:Vitamin D 'makes stronger babies' Giving pregnant women vitamin D could mean their babies grow stronger bones in later life, a study suggests. A study of 198 mothers indicated the children of those who lacked the vitamin, crucial for calcium absorption, had weaker bones at nine. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4584518.stm  

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

And a jolly good one at that!.........SarahStarted the Wheldon regime in August 2003, due to very aggressive SPMS.  Moved to intermittent therapy after one year.  In May 2006 still take this, two weeks every two months.  EDSS was about 7, now less than 2. An Itinerary in Light and Shadow  Berger.

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Incredible  papers, Marie.  I have been taking only 2400 units a day.  I was wrong I think and will increase both of us.  Thank you. Rica        EDSS 6.7 at beginning - now 2 Ignorance is voluntary bad luck.  Lauritz S.   A true Viking If you come to a fork in the road, take it. Yogi Berra

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

An abstract for a new study on Vitamin D and infections can be found at:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&li… seems that D can act like an antibiotic.RavenCAP since 8-05 for Cpn and Mycoplasma P. for MS and/or CFS 

Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpn. CAP since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NAC,BHRT, MethyB12 FIR Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath

 This is a great find, and good addition to the importance of Vitamin D supplementation for many of us. Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Chlamydia pneumonia in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome & Fibromyalgia- Currently: 150mg INH, Doxycycline/Zithromycin, Tinidazole pulses. Northern Ohio, USA

  Apologies if this this has been posted before but I found it very interesting http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20061111/bob9.asp Elinor from England, UK..... on Wheldon protocol for ME/lyme borreliosis , positive for borrelia and Cpn.  Started  Aug 05, stopped Jan06, started again Oct 06.

Elinor ..... from England  on CAP, doxy/roxi/tini  for ME/CFS/lyme borreliosis, positive Cpn and borrelia. Started Aug05, stopped Jan06, started again Sept 06.

Vitamin D can reduce NFkB activity thereby reducing inflammation.

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/4/889

 

This is interesting as I recently noticed a reduction in overall inflammation after an hour in the sun. In next few days when I felt inflammation coming on, I took about 4000 iu of D and felt inflammation was smoothed out in a matter of 10 to 15 minutes.

Raven

CAP since 8-05 for Cpn and Mycoplasma P. for MS and/or CFS. Now treating for EBV with Valtrex. Calif. USA

 

 

Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpn. CAP since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NAC,BHRT, MethyB12 FIR Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath

What type of inflamation do you have?I don't know what source of vitamin D or what elements the Aloe contains but it has helped me with my swelling hands!  I have been taking it one week ago and the inflamation of my body is going away...  now I'm adding the D vitamin, great!Hope you get well too!Maria 

God bless you all.MariaPatri - living in a rollercoaster! (In Orlando, Fl).Thyroiditis, sinus infection, heart, muscles and joints. 

I am so confused about the D issue. When I first got sick I spent two years reading the Marshall Protocol website and his papers - but didn't do the protocol (I'm not sure about the high doses of Benicar and its effects on the body). Had my D tests done. It is true, all of us with infections have low D. But that is because the bugs convert it to the hormone 1,25 D. So we have low D, but high 1,25 D. The more D we ingest (fortified D foods, supplements) the higher our 1,25 D hormone goes and the more inflammation we have. Apparently a high 1,25 D hormone suppresses the immune system. D foods and supplements will make us feel better, but prevent us from getting well. At least thats what his science says, and I hate to argue, but the science seems sound.

Marshall has sinced backed off the sunlight issue (only D foods and supplements can lead to 1,25 D toxicity) and only recommends avoiding because of herx problems with the Benicar, but it is not necessary to stay out of sun. He only recommends avoiding D enriched foods. I think he may be right on this one. Think about it. Ever since D-fortified foods hit the market these diseases have gone through the roof.

Don't get me wrong, I am on the CAP protocol, but am not sold on overloading myself with D supplements. If you all check your 1,25 D I think you will find it to be too high. Once the infection is reduced, however I don't any of us will have this problem.

Didn't mean to stir things up, but have been thinking about this for a while. If any Dr's out there could sort this out for me I would love to hear from you!

Be well all.

Chris

CAP since 11/06 for CFS. Cpn, Myco P, CMV, HHV-6 infections.
Zith 250mg MWF. Will add Minocin in Deccember. All supplements.

CAP since 11/06 for Cpn, Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Myco P, CMV, HHV-6 infections.
Rifampin 600mg daily, Zithromax 500mg daily. NAC 2250mg daily. All other supplements. Now Bicillin LA 2.4 mil injection weekly.

The effects of 1,25-D are more complicated than just "suppressing the immune system".  In some cases they boost it; one study found that 1,25-D caused white blood cells to kill tuberculosis germs residing inside themselves.  (This was mentioned on Marshall's website; but he has since censored the post, so you will no longer find it there.)  A better characterization is that 1,25-D is an immune system signaling hormone, for which Vitamin D is the raw material.  Most of the 1,25-D is made and used locally; it never hits the bloodstream.  Its precise effects are still being explored; but human biochemistry evolved running around naked in Africa, with loads and loads of Vitamin D always at hand.  That is the condition nature has optimized us for.  Whatever its precise role, deliberately depriving the body of this signaling hormone is likely to work about as well as ripping out all the red-colored wires in an electrical circuit works.

Thanks for the informative reply Norman. I am very interested in this subject and confused why there are two camps who seem to be effectively ridding patients of these horrible pathogens. I am siding with CAP treatment for myself as it has been aorund longer than The MP and as you said, starving ourselves of D just feels wrong to me.

Would still love to hear from others about their theories on D and 1,25 D correlation.

Be well all.

Chris

CAP since 11/06 for CFS. Cpn, Myco P, CMV, HHV-6 infections.
Zith 250mg MWF. Will add Minocin in Deccember. All supplements.

CAP since 11/06 for Cpn, Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Myco P, CMV, HHV-6 infections.
Rifampin 600mg daily, Zithromax 500mg daily. NAC 2250mg daily. All other supplements. Now Bicillin LA 2.4 mil injection weekly.

D W

The Harvard study which examined vitamin D supplementation and incidence of MS is persuasive [Munger KL, Zhang SM, O'Reilly E, et al., Vitamin D intake and incidence of multiple sclerosis. Neurology. 2004 Jan 13;62(1):60-5.] link. The authors conclude that vitamin D supplementation reduces the risk of developing MS.D W - Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding pulsed metronidazole. Improved; normotensive  

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Ken Lassensen's site has a number of excellent reviews of the Vitamin D issues including these links:http://lassesen.com/cfids/recommended_levels.htm http://lassesen.com/cfids/vit_d_&_illnesses.htm CAP for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFS & FMS- Currently: 150mg INH, 300mg Rifampin, 200 Doxycycline, 500mg mwf Azithromycin, plus 500mg Tinidazole 2x/day pulses every two weeks. Whew! That's a lot! about 60% recovery. Ohio,

I agree it is confusing that there are two camps apparently effectively ridding people of intracellular bacteria with diametrically opposed points of view: one encouraging using vit D freely and one limiting it severely. What is similar is that both are using antibiotics so to that extent there is agreement about the need to kill off these bug but the disagreement comes in in relation to the reaction to treatment and the need to ameliorate it with other approaches. Here the focus is on the work done at VU that indicates that there maybe some secondary porphyria related to treatment (see research pages) as well as some common herxheimer type reactions to the LPS released during treatment. Both are considered manageable by us here, though some people get enough inflammaatory reaction that make the addition of new meds as they ramp up at the start the protocol slowly.

Here is what I know: I was tested for both D analogues and was high normal for BOTH, not the anomaly the Marshall says "will" be there if I have a TH1 disease. Since I have MS and RA, I should show the anomaly he says (high 1,25 D caused by immune cells taking more of the 25D and converting it to that active version). I had active disease at the time of D tests, which was in fall pretreatment.

Research does NOT support the idea of 1,25 D causing inflammation. In paper after paper you get evidence it DECREASES it. Examples follow:
Giulietti A, van Etten E, Overbergh L, Stoffels K, Bouillon R, Mathieu C
Monocytes from type 2 diabetic patients have a pro-inflammatory profile 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D(3) works as anti-inflammatory.
Diabetes Res Clin Pract. 2006 Nov 15; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 17112620
AND THIS ONE
Stio M, Martinesi M, Bruni S, Treves C, Mathieu C, Verstuyf A, d'Albasio G, Bagnoli S, Bonanomi AG. Related Articles, Links
The Vitamin D analogue TX 527 blocks NF-kappaB activation in peripheral blood mononuclear cells of patients with Crohn's disease.
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Oct 16; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 17049230

Follow the links on the right side of the pubmed page for these and read other related papers also

I cannot find a paper on pubmed that says that vitamin D increases inflammation. This site points out some worrisome information about the quality of the information used to support the MP http://impnvestigator.chat.ru/

Especially worrisome is that the papers written by T. Marshall particularly related to vitamin d and inflammation were rejected by peer reviewed journals, yet the papers are referred to as support for the MP point of view as if they are accepted research. That would be like me referring you to the CPN help handbook on MS stuff that I wrote as if it were authoritative research!

A very recent paper accepted for publication by TM was in a journal for theoretical biological models, the paper makes the case that the vitamin d receptor might be acted upon by angiotenson receptor blockers like benicar as demostrated by his theoretical molecular models. But this proves nothing whatsoever in regards to inflammation or intracellular bacteria, only that in his theoretical model the VDR is strongly blocked by benicar. He makes the case someone should study it directly in the lab now that his model has pointed the way. I agree with that. see it here Theor Biol Med Model. 2006 Jan 10;3:1.
"Common angiotensin receptor blockers may directly modulate the immune system via VDR, PPAR and CCR2b." Marshall TG, Lee RE, Marshall FE.

Here is another paper, this one importantly a review, on D3 and its immunomodulatory properties. Note that it is mentioned as a positive factor for autoimmune diseases, not as proinflammatory or problematic.
Curr Drug Targets Inflamm Allergy. 2004 Dec;3(4):377-93.
Immunoregulation through 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and its analogs.May E, Asadullah K, Zugel U.
If you read the related links you will find numerous papers suggesting that D3 agonists--note agonist means opposite of antagonist--decrease inflammation and many that indicate it improves immune function. It is intimately involved with modulation of the immune system in fairly complex ways.

I should also say that I do know people who have gotten better on the MP, but I suggest it is the antibiotics they use (which do get to regular levels eventually) that accomplishes the goal.

If lowering D were important to treatment we would be having trouble with this protocol, and that is not the case.

I do not know if this helped your concerns but I hope it did
marie

On CAP since Sept '05 for MS, RA, Asthma, sciatica. EDSS at start 5.5. Currently on: Doxy 200, Azith 3x week, Tini 2x month, all supplements.
"Color out side the lines!"

On CAP since Sept '05 for MS, RA, Asthma, sciatica. EDSS at start 5.5.(early cane) Now 6 (cane full time) Originally on: Doxy 200, Azith 3x week, Tini cont. over summer '07, Revamp of protocol in Summer '08 by Stratton due to functional loss; clarithro

Red

Hi all,I also recently posted these studies that suggest Cpn may prevent normal cell apoptosis via upregulation of NF-kappaB and inhibitor of apoptosis protein 2 (cIAP2):NF-kappaB and inhibitor of apoptosis proteins are required for apoptosis resistance of epithelial cells persistently infected with Chlamydophila pneumoniaeWhile vitamin D3 has been shown to  induce "decreases in levels of antiapoptotic proteins Bcl-2, Bcl-X(L), and Mcl-1, BAG1L, XIAP, cIAP1, and cIAP2 (without altering proapoptotic Bax and Bak) in association with increases in apoptosis" in the following study: Apoptosis induction by 1alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 in prostate cancerI'm not currently taking Vit D supplements as I usually get plenty of sun exposure here in SoCal and I'm also doing so well now in treatment, but I've sure thought of trying additional supplementation (and still may in the future)...  On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosacea since 01/06

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-

There is plenty of information about the vitamin D issue in an article by Mark London. It is a somewhat critical assessment of the reasoning behind the MP (see link).Mycoplasma1, you may want to try the calcium loading test that is described in that article. Supplement with calcium and see whether your 1,25-D level goes down (as it should if renal production is the main factor) or whether it stays the same (indicative of TH1 production).There certainly are people who improve on either protocol. So in the end, neither adding nor avoiding vitamin D may strictly be necessary for recovery.BTW, I've also tested low on 25-D and high normal on 1,25-D.

D W

There have been some very useful posts on this thread. Four observations may be made:a) Vitamin D induces the production of cathelicidin peptides.b) Cathelicidins have antibacterial (including antichlamydial) activity.c) People with MS are likely to be borderline deficient in vitamin Dd) People who supplement with Vitamin D are less likely to get MSTogether, these observations support the idea of supplementation with Vitamin D; they also lend support to the idea of MS having an infective origin. Furthermore, cathelicidins have wide-ranging antiviral properties and have been found to be particularly active against Herpes Simplex Virus [Gordon YJ, Huang LC, Romanowski EG, Yates KA, Proske RJ, McDermott AM. Human cathelicidin (LL-37), a multifunctional peptide, is expressed by ocular surface epithelia and has potent antibacterial and antiviral activity. Curr Eye Res. 2005 May;30(5):385-94.] Link. Cathelicidin deficiency has also been found to occur in people with eczema herpeticum in people with atopic dermatitis. Supplementation with Vitamin D may therefore be important in suppressing the posited henchmen viruses in MS and other chronic C pneumoniae infections.D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later metronidazole. Now normotensive.]  

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

D W

Thanks for all the work you are doing, Marie; it's much appreciated. I've just come upon this, an excellent paper which reviews Vitamin D induction of cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) in a very clear way [Gombart AF, Borregaard N, Koeffler HP. Human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) gene is a direct target of the vitamin D receptor and is strongly up-regulated in myeloid cells by 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3. FASEB J. 2005 Jul;19(9):1067-77.] Link. It's available as a pdf. The authors found that Vitamin D induced CAMP in bone-marrow cells and in BM-derived macrophages. This could be of key importance as marrow is an organ of filtration and its cells are targets of C. pneumoniae. The authors also point out that CAMP binds to endotoxin and prevent modify induction of pro-inflammatory cytokines.This is relevant work, too: addition of D3 to peripheral blood monocytes and macrophages infected with Mycobacterium bovis resulted in enhanced bacterial killing, probably due to enhanced NO production [Waters WR, Nonnecke BJ, Rahner TE et al., Modulation of Mycobacterium bovis-specific responses of bovine peripheral blood mononuclear cells by 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3). Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 2001 Nov;8(6):1204-12.] Link. This may be of importance as there are parallels between mycobacterial and chronic C pneumoniae infection: might vitamin D deficiency allow an acute C pneumoniae infection to persist and become chronic?Well, as this is the middle of winter, I took 8,000 IU D3 yesterday. Today I feel a lot better for it; in fact I feel rather like I did as a boy after a day at the sea-side.D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later metronidazole. Now normotensive.]  

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

David,8000 sounds like a lot.  Then again, Dr. Sriram wrote Kim a script for 50,000 once a week.  It turned out to be D2 and we called and agreed to continue on 6000 D3 daily.  I have been reading about others taking as much a 10000 per day.  Are you regularly taking 8000 per day?  How would we know if this is a good idea to try or not?Ken Also, more generally, it is my undersanding that taking a COX-2 inhibitor like Naproxen or Ibuprofen has a negating effect on vitamin d.  I'm going to print up this whole thread and read it.  Mostly want to know if it's worth bumping up to 8000 or even 10000.

In pursuit of ABXDon't Allow What You Know To Get In The Way Of What Might Be

 Gosh I wish it had that effect on me!   Although I can't ever remember feeling like a boy...----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Michele:  on Wheldon protocol since 1st May 2006 for a variety of long standing ailments, also spokesperson for Ella star

Michèle (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, metro pulse.

Red

Hi all, I just noticed this finally showed up.   I posted it several weeks ago, but it got picked up as spam.   Must have been added in the site upgrade...  On only my 4th day of 4000ius of Vit D3 and so far very impressed with its benefits (skin, sinus, etc), I decided to dig a bit to see what pathogens have been shown to be affected by Vit D3 directly or through LL-37, the human cathelicidin that Vit D3 has been shown in the studies presented above to induce so dramatically.   Since the pathogens that are affected by LL-37 don't necessary show up in a search related to Vit D3 directly I decided to list a few of these here:LL-37 & Candida Albicans"Treatment of C. albicans with 20 μM LL-37 caused a complete disappearance of the integrity of cellular membranes, as no recognizable ultrastructure could be distinguished"LL-37 and Bacillus species" Although, B. anthracis is more resistant to LL-37 than other members of the Bacillus genus, LL-37 was bactericidal for B. anthracis at concentrations greater than 125 µg/ml. Infections with B. anthracis are mediated by spores, which lack protease secretion and, as such, are extremely susceptible to LL-37-mediated killing at this early stage in the infection process." LL-37 & E. coli" Our findings clearly show that LL-37 neutralizes the LPS-induced proinflammatory response. Compared to polymyxin B and the beta-lactams, LL-37 caused the highest inhibition of LPS-induced TNF-{alpha} and NO production in RAW 264.7 cells, and it was effective in vivo versus all parameters considered, regardless of the animal model utilized. Importantly, intravenous LL-37 produced a significant reduction in TNF-{alpha} plasma levels, compared to both control and beta-lactam-treated groups. In contrast, compared with polymyxin B, it produced a similar decrease in the concentration of plasma endotoxin. Since polymyxin B is frequently used as the standard against which novel antiendotoxin compounds are measured, it is significant that polymyxin B and LL-37 reduced the plasma levels of LPS to a similar extent and showed similar abilities in blocking induction of TNF in animal models. Models 2 and 3, which also evaluated the in vivo antimicrobial effects of the four compounds, showed that although LL-37 exhibited a somewhat lower antibacterial activity than other drugs, it decreased the rate of lethality at a level similar to those of imipenem and polymyxin B and better than that of piperacillin. It is important to observe in this regard that two key determinants of sepsis survival are bacterial clearance and the inflammatory response to the infection. Finally, comparable data were observed when the drugs were administered at 360 min (model 3)" LL-37 & M. furfur & Dermatophyes (responsible for tinea infections)"LL-37 inhibits the growth of fungi with an MIC of 20-30 microM for M. furfur and 12.5 microM for Trichophyton mentagrophytes and T. rubrum. LL-37 also shows fungicidal activity with a minimum fungicidal concentration (MFC) of 12.5 and 25 microM for T. mentagrophytes and T. rubrum, respectively" LL-37 & Pseudomonas aeruginosa (PA), Staphylococcus aureus (SA), Staphylococcus epidermidis (SE), herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1), and adenovirus (Ad) "We found LL-37 to have potent antibacterial activity against both a laboratory strain and clinical isolates of PA. Our EC50values of approximately 2-4 μg/ml compare well with published studies of the effectiveness of LL-37 against other PA strains.20,27,28,58,59 LL-37 also demonstrated potent antibacterial activity against the most common Gram-positive keratitis-producing organisms: SE (mean EC501.3 μg/ml) and SA (mean EC501.6 μg/ml)""We report for the first time that LL-37 demonstrates significant antiviral inhibitory activity (>98% inhibition) against HSV-1, the leading viral cause of corneal blindness in industrialized countries.""Additionally, we report for the first time that LL- 37 demonstrated statistically significant inhibitory activity in vitro against Ad19, a major cause of conjunctivitis and epidemic keratoconjunctivitis in local and global epidemics."LL-37 & H. pylori"LL-37, the C-terminal peptide of LL-37/hCAP18, alone or in synergy with human beta-defensin 1, was bactericidal for several H. pylori strains" LL-37 and B. Burgdorferi"B. burgdorferi were killed by the PMNL antimicrobial components elastase, LL-37, bactericidal/permeability-increasing protein, and human neutrophil peptide-1" LL-37 and group A Streptococcus"Analysis of anti-microbial activity of this C-terminal peptide against group A Streptococcus revealed that both LL-37 and CRAMP potently inhibited bacterial growth. Action against group A Streptococcus occurred in conditions that typically abolish the activity of anti-microbial peptides against other organisms" Hope you find this interesting.   I sure did...   On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosacea since 01/06

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-
Red

BTW, the only study that I've been able to find related to human cathelicidins and Cpn is the following, and it seems to suggest that human cathelicidins may not be all that effective against Cpn at least in vitro (see free full text):Involvement of the antimicrobial peptide LL-37 in human atherosclerosis"Intriguingly, Chlamydia pneumoniae withstood the antimicrobial activity of LL-37 in vitro, although inflammatory response was induced on infection."The additional fatigue and stuffiness I'm curently getting (in a bit of a delayed reaction) with the addition of Vit D3 makes me think that this may not really be the case, potentially due Vit D3's interference with the mechanism Cpn seems to use to prevent apoptosis (see above), the mechanisms DW mentions (see above), or differences between in vivo and in vitro mechanisms. My symptoms could also be due to a die-off of some other pathogen of course (such as Candida, etc)... Has anyone seen any studies that do suggest human cathelicidins are actually effective directly against Cpn by any chance? I don't really need convincing that Vit D3's important in fighting Cpn, but I'm just curious... On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosacea since 01/06

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-

Hi everyone! Havent been here for a while for medicale reason. A lot of new things on the site, good things. I am glade to be able to come back and read or trying to keep up with the stories (even thoght I dont respond, I have trouble frasing or explaning my feelings or thats in english. When I read what I wrote, it often dosent say what I wanted to say) Is anyone fallowing me?????? Any way, I have been reading a lot tonight and found this page with all these study's (very interesting but some hard for me to understand). I was looking for something in purticulor and did not find it. So I am asking if someone can give me a answer or lead me to the right direction? For those that dont know, my father has MS and is on abx. He wasent taking any vitamine D, witch we added about 3 weeks ago. Since that time, he is having more numness in his arms, hard time to talk, he is less stable, looses his balance more. He was suppossed to star his second pulse, but he waided because of that. But the thing is, it dos not seem to go away. He dos not go outside at all, so we think it is important for him to take this vitamine? Has any one hade a reaction similar to this? and this may sound strange but he noticed that with caffein it get's worse and he feel's it fast, he needs to go for a sleep and the symptomes are amplified. Is that strange????? He has always drink so many coffees in a day, it's just since the Vitamine D. So of course he is trying to cut down on his coffee. We know that we souldent start a pulse when you are not feeling good, but should he cut down the vitamine D and wait, or start his pulse anyway? What is the impact of delaying a pulse for a long period of time??????

As always, "apresheading" your help!(I need to go by my self a english/french dictionnairy)
karen b

karen b

Hi Karen,AH! the vitamin D question...   We have had some interesting and lively discussions about  Vit D in the past couple of months.   It appears to have a great significance for people with MS and it appears to behave as an antibiotic would in the high doses that we take on this protocol.   Ella, my daughter with MS has had the same kind of reactions when either taking extra vit D or getting a big dose of sunshine, Jim says that a day in the sun is estimated to be equivalent to 10000iu of vit D and after a holiday in the sun she had the worst set back she has had since her last relapse a year ago.   She still has not recovered from that and we are being cautious now about Vit D and the pulse. We have been increasing her Vit D dose cautiously to 6000iu daily, as it appears to have a similar Cpn killing potential to Flagyl.  During her next pulse next week she is going to reduce her vitamin D intake to 4000iu so as not to accumulate too much killing activity and cause another severe reaction.  Michele: Wheldon CAP1st May 2006 for ailments including IBS, sinusitis, alopecia, asthma, peripheral neuropathy. Spokesperson for Ella started Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006 for RRMS. Sussex UK

Michèle (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, metro pulse.

Karen- it appears more and more that Vitamin D3 is very useful as an anti-chlamydial, but:  it will increase the die-off effect, so should be added gradually, just like other antichlamydials. Add more as is tolerated. Probably is ideal to have a doctor familiar with it's measurement monitor its blood levels, but 4000-6000 units appears quite safe, but again will increase die off so one should not start there. I'd start with 1000 units a day and work up to that. Currently I'm only taking 2000 units myself.If your father is not getting over the increased symptoms, either wait longer for the pulse until he does, or lower the D dose until he can manage it better. Observations generally have been  that increasing D3 will increase the reactions to the flagyl pulse for a couple rounds, suggesting that it is not equivalent to flagyl in it's antibacterial effect, but rather is driving more Cpn into Cryptic form to escape, as with doxy and azith. This is a speculative hypothesis, but consistent with anecdotal observations here by users. CAP for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFS & FMS- Currently: 150mg INH, 300mg Rifampin, 200 Doxycycline, 500mg mwf Azithromycin, plus 500mg Tinidazole 2x/day pulses every two weeks. Whew! That's a lot!

Red

Hi All,One other warning about ramping up slowly with Vit D3, and I'm certainly no expert, but studies suggest that Vit D3 has VERY long serum half-life, and that supplementing in daily, weekly or monthly fashion has very little difference on average daily serum (blood) levels, with the exception of some minor spikes. Fast forward to around minute 32:00 and slide 37 in the Vieth video (originally posted by Marie above) below for more information on this:http://www.insinc.com/onlinetv/directms13oct2005/softvnetplayer.htm In my mind, this would imply too that it may take quite some time (weeks even) to notice any real decrease in effects if you have pushed too hard with Vit D3 and want to back off in dosage. So be careful. It's likely not like one of the other antibiotics where you can decrease dosage if necessary and expect to see the effects in a few days. As you can see too, if you're supplementing daily it does take a while to build up to peak levels, and this seems to make sense of why I saw very little difference in my first flagyl pulse following the addition of 4000iu of Vit D (it was only a couple of weeks after starting), but I got smacked with die-off on my 2nd flagyl pulse (@ 6 weeks after adding Vit D3) following and even more so on my 3rd (@ 10 weeks after adding Vit D3). The 4th flagyl pulse was not quite as bad as the 3rd, so I'm hoping the effects have peaked...One other thing is that, for me, the Vit D3 has not only made the days during a pulse more difficult, but it has also seemed to greatly increased the after pulse recovery time, making many of my symptoms (congestion, fatigue, etc mostly now) show up for a good week or even two following the pulse, whereas before they only seemed to last a couple of days, particularly at the point in treatment that I was where I had seemed to plateau on just the antibiotics (I started Vit D3 @ 11 months into treatment).Jim, don't forget too about Vit D's effects on apoptosis. Potentially, instead of driving Cpn to a cryptic state, it is actually greatly decreasing Cpn's ability to continue to hijack the cells they have entered, preventing normal cell death. Once the flagyl hits them, perhaps the Vit D only makes it more certain that the cell they have hijacked will die, spilling out all the endotoxins and porphyrins inside to cause many of the reactions we get...  On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosacea since 01/06

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-
pts

I used a fatty acid(eye q) 1-2 month before I collapsed in nov 2003. Stopped it. Other people a talked to have noted neurlogical signs like arms moving in children that stoped when they stopped eye q. I get worse(more inflammation) when exposed to UV(even with NoIRs).
If Vit-d makes a stronger immunsystem and a stronger immunsystem can mean more inflammation then my expericense makes sens.
Acut illness started with an infection(virus) in feb 2001 for all in family. There were other diffuse signs before.
My NoIR was introduces in okt 2004.
I guess I have to be carefull with Vit D.

/Per
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Chronic Neuroborrliose,abx+E-vimin+selen+Q10+B12 antrophsofic medicin and therapy. First I was afraid, I was petrified Kept thinking I could never live,Oh no, not I I will survive

Thanks Red for that added information.   So getting Ella to stop taking the extra Vit D whilst taking the flagyl is unlikely to make things easier for her...   Hopefully her body will have adapted to the extra vit D enough so that she does not get too clobbered by the falgyl.I'll tell her to go carefully with the flagyl instead... Michele: Wheldon CAP1st May 2006 for ailments including IBS, sinusitis, alopecia, asthma, peripheral neuropathy. Spokesperson for Ella started Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006 for RRMS. Sussex UK

Michèle (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, metro pulse.