27 Apr 2018
Author
Timaca
Title

substitute for azithromycin?

Body

In the CAP protocol, what other medication could be substituted for Azithromycin?   I would be looking for an antibiotic that I am potentially not allergic too,  since I *possibly* had an allergic reaction to erythromycin.  Azithromycin or other similar drugs would not be recommended for me.Thanks,Timaca

Comments

Fixed, Timaca!

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Timaca,   I switched from Azithromycin @ 250 mg / M,W,F  to Clarithromycin @ 500 mg / twice a day at about the year mark.  I had no or little reaction to Azithromycin that I noticed when I started and that was the sole antibiotic for the first three weeks.  The second day of starting Doxy and for 5-6 months the reaction, pain, was beyond noticeable by a great deal.  I did read a post from Sarah about Azithromycin being better than Clarithromycin for BBB penetration and I do have M.S. but the epicenter of my infection is in my lower torso I believe and that is what I target and a positive reaction to me is really more pain.  After changing to Clarithromycin I did get an increase in pain in that area although much less that the Doxy did when I started it.  I am still on it and might change back to Azithromycin as this may help with fighting cell immunity to antibiotics and fighting different strains by periodic substitution as I have read from Dr. Stratton.  I truly believe that a reaction to antibiotics, pain in my case is a good thing as it is bacterial death that is causing it.This is just me and what I have done, hope this helps. Corrected, sorry; Clarithromycin 500mg / twice a day

Cpn, Mycoplasma, Chronic EBV, M.S.(MRI, Spinal Tap-greater than 5 oligoclonal bands and VEP), PANDAS(OCD). Wheldon CAP (started 12/08), Azithromycin/Clarithromycin(12/09), Lithium, Lamictal, NAC(2.4g/day), D3(15,000IU/day)

Hi, Timaca,  I remember well being SO afraid to even take the Azith as I thought I was allergic to it.  I had a bad experience with Biaxin about 10 years ago..... couldn't breath, went to the ER in an ambulance.... so I was afraid of the Azith and what I might experience.  My "allergy" was really the fact the ABX was hitting the CPN, I didn't know I had.I had to build my Azith up slowly as well, (I started at 1/2 of a 250 mg tablet once per week!  I remember laughing, as someone here (giving me moral support) stated they took a book, laptop, or something and sat in the emergency room waiting area, taking one of their (I don't know if it was their first Flagyl or Azith)  and waited... figuring if they had a reaction they would be in the right place, LOL!   What type of reaction did you have?  JeanneRoz   

JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni

Timaca,I also have these " allergies" and breathing problems.Always on day four of the antibiotic or combination I had to stop. In one case the allergy was retested later by a hospital and they said it was a real allergy. I am not sure.Do you have a doctor who can do ART testing, at least that would be another possibility.   

Hello~   Thanks for all your responses.  Clarithromycin is in the same class of antibiotics as azithromycin, so I could not use that either.  I had taken erythromycin (also related to clarithromycin and azithromycin).   After  I finished the drug (like a week later), I had full body rash (hives type), swollen palms and soles with rash on palms and sole, very itchy and very fatigued.  I checked with my doctor and pharmacist, and they thought I had had an allergic reaction to the drug.  I thought that was odd, since I had finished the drug and been done with it for awhile before I broke out.  Looking back (it was over 10 years ago), I'm not sure it was an allergic reaction to the drug...it may have been a type of herxheimer reaction.  But, I don't know for sure. Nevertheless, I have not taken erythromycin since.As I was reading about azithromycin, it said not to take it if you've had an allergic reaction to erythromycin.  Ditto for clarithromycin.  So, that could really limit what I take CAP wise, if my doctor wishes to address the Cpn differently at my upcoming appt.  (I've had a very interesting 2 months, so he may want to deal with other things....I'll provide more of an update for those interested after my appts.)Any other drug ideas that would not potentially cause an allergic reaction?Thanks, Timaca

on valtrex 500 mg tidhttp://whispersfromthefather.me/   

I had a very bad reaction to erythromycin when I was sixteen. My college clinic gave it to me for strep throat, I went home to bed, took the pill and promptly believed I was about to die. My throat swelled up, my fever spiked and my body began to ache in earnest. I couldn't even swallow more water. I pulled the blanket up to my shoulders and resigned myself to the fact I would never wake up, and I was so miserable, I honestly didn't care. Obviously, I woke up. I refused to take another capsule and I recovered in a couple of weeks. I was convinced I'd had an allergic reaction. Something similar, but not so dramatic, happened to me again ten years ago, when I took Cipro. Long story short (which I've posted here before), just before I started the protocol, I sat in an allergist's office most of the day, being tested. He said they do this all the time. First we did a drop of the children's liquid form of azith, then more, then under the tongue, etc. He pronounced me 'not allergic' and I continued taking azith from that day on. He told me he thought the cpn -as-cause- of-MS theory had merit and he believed my bad reaction to azith had been the azith (and Cipro) attacking the bacterial infection. As he said, antibiotics ALWAYS make you feel bad at first, when they begin doing battle with the bug.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Sorry, couldn't edit the above post. Meant "bad reaction to erythromycin", not azith. The whole point, of course, being they're both in the same family.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Hi thereI had a similar experience with Bactrim another antibiotic. I started with 1/4 of a single strength dose and I came out in hives all over my body so bad I had to get in a cold bath. 4 Days later I tried again then kept that up till I could take 1/4 every day, I then gradually upped the dose until I could take double strength daily. I kept it up till there were no more symptoms so guessed I had killed whatever bacteria there was to kill and stopped taking it then moved on to another antibiotic 

Jeanmw

Hey MacKintosh~First, thanks for correcting the spelling of azithromycin in the heading of the post! Laughing  Second, that's not a bad idea to consider seeing if an allergist could help me figure it out.    I was not ill at the time I took the erythromycin...infected wound on my finger...but I was very healthy otherwise....and continued to be healthy for many years after that, so I know that the problem with the erythromycin was not because it was killing off Cpn.  Lyme, maybe, since that could have been a tick bite....but it could have also been an allergic reaction....which is why I'm being cautious here.   At any rate, if my doctor chooses to address the Cpn (which still needs addressing) I will have to mention the problem I had with the erythromycin....and see what he wishes to do about that.  It seems like those are my choices of drugs as far as CAP is concerned...the azitromycin and clarithromycin, correct?   On a positive note, the oxymatrine beat down the Coxsackie, and March was my best month ever.  My son ended up with a 10 day fever the end of March, then broke out in full body hives to amoxicillin (see why the whole allergic thing is so fresh in my mind), then ended up being diagnosed with pneumonia.  Needless to say a stressful time.   I then fell apart about the time he got well...very off balance, stiff neck, feeling poorly, missing steps, depersonalization, headaches, etc.  A week later had blood draws, and it looks like the EBV reactivated.   It's pretty convincing lab work on a number of fronts (normal Coxsackie titers, high EBV titers--which had been low) among other things.   Apart from the fact that I got worse again, this is really very exciting stuff....for it strongly supports the fact that there are multiple pathogens in me causing problems.  We'll see if the doctors agree.So, while Cpn still needs to be addressed, I'm not sure if that is what he will address now due to the EBV.  It would be my preference to address the Cpn.  We'll see what happenes, but that is why I was inquiring about a substitution for the azithromycin.Best, Timaca

on valtrex 500 mg tidhttp://whispersfromthefather.me/   

Timaca, you might want to look into Lauricidin  (http://www.lauricidin.com)  for the viruses and possibly show the info sheet to your doctor.  It's quite interesting, really.    Microorganisms inactivated:  http://www.lauricidin.com/micro.aspNot to discredit your concern, but your statement:

"I was very healthy otherwise....and continued to be healthy for many years after that, so I know that the problem with the erythromycin was not because it was killing off Cpni"  

Leads me to the question, how do you know you didn't have CPN back then?  Many of us, years ago, thought we were healthy all the while harboring this menance.  Just food for thought.Hope you get it figured out.  As you know, Roxi is an alternative, but it has to be self-ordered and I understand you prefer not to do that.Be well,JeanneRoz

JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni

Hi JeanneRoz~You ask "how do you know you didnt' have Cpn back then?"   If I did, it was in the latent state...and was not an issue.  As herpes viruses can also be latent and not be an issue.  I was so very, very healthy....did serious athletic challenges with no problems whatsoever.    So, the reaction I had was either an allergic one, or that was a tick bite I had on my finger (it ended up being an open, necrosing wound, that got infected, hence the antibiotic)...and the tick gave me a bacterial infection that was too early to give symptoms, but gave me a herx like die off reaction from the antibiotic.     I also was given antibiotics many years later for a lung issue, and never had any kind of reaction.   It will be interesting to see what the doctors say.  I am looking forward to my appointments.I'm not familiar with Roxi, so I will check into that.  And you are correct, in that if I do something, my doctors have to know about it, and be on board with it....Thanks for your input....Best, Timaca

on valtrex 500 mg tidhttp://whispersfromthefather.me/   

Timaca ~ I guess my understanding of the CPN bacteria is different than yours..... it's never "latent" but rather goes  cryptic and that is where it is silently wreaking it's havoc in our bodies.  That is also why doctor's don't believe the titer tests and usually say it's a "past infection".   I am sure you will figure  out  what is best for you.  Please keep us posted and I am happy that the oxymatrine has worked on the coxsackie virus.    And, I am also sorry your son became ill (did he get tested for cpn?)Be well,JeanneRoz

JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni

Hi Jeanneroz~You are more correct than I (latent vs cryptic for Cpn).  I've spent too long dealing with viruses to be up to speed on the correct terminology for Cpn.  EmbarassedMy doctors do believe my antibody titers to Cpn...for both IgG and IgA are quite high...not a problem with belief, more of a problem of too many fires to put out, and wishing to change only one variable at each appt.  I will keep you posted.  I will be interested to see what the doctors have to say.  I did some checking on Roxi, and it is in the same class of drugs (macrolides) as erythromycin and azithromycin, so it may not be a possibility for me either:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrolide Yes, the oxymatrine has worked really well.  I think that doctor is going to be dancing!  LaughingMy son was not tested for Cpn.  It was some kind of pneumonia, so it could have been that.  He is well now, though, so hopefully he will stay that way.Best to you,Timaca

on valtrex 500 mg tidhttp://whispersfromthefather.me/   

Timaca,We may have some similar issues and maybe this will help you from what I have found and the actions taken. I have had extensive blood testing for several years, much longer actually, and was quite unsure of the problems with my immune system and my doctors were not sure either. I show high antibody levels for many bacteria and viruses yet I do not have the infections at present, not chronic, for most of them. At first glance it would appear that I do by looking at the antibody levels but no symptoms for that infection now or going back a very long time.Two of them for example that have very high antibody titers are Varicella Zoster (Shingles) and Bordetella Pertussis (Whooping Cough). I had shingles over ten years ago, there is little doubt about this bug that you have it or do not, quite painful. The second one, Whooping Cough, with the exposure to it from a brother when I was 5 years old. This infection is quite obvious too when you have it and I do not and have not had it for over 45 years yet the blood test would be interpreted as an chronic infection if my symptoms were not regarded also. On this one the levels were so high the local Health Department contacted my doctor and myself and stated I must stay at home, not at work until cured, my doctor chuckled.My Infectious Disease doctor checked myself for Chronic EBV and it is Chronic, although it required testing several weeks apart, 4-6 I think, to verify it. She told me EBV is tricky and pops up and down with time on almost everyone at some point. The testing for EBV included EBNA, antibody levels and more to make this judgment, she was very careful. I have very fine doctors. I have been testing Cpn antibodies at regular intervals now for over two years with high elevations of Cpn IgA and IgG antibodies, I have never had abnormal elevations for IgM show up. From what I have read on this site from Dr. Stratton and a few other sources the elevation of Cpn IgG's and IgA's is a strong indicator of a Chronic Cpn Infection along with NAC of course, I have little doubt about this with me now. See two links below. I have read from this site statements from Dr. Stratton about Cpn interfering with the bodies Interleukin levels and thus its ability to maintain balance in the immune system for proper functioning when dealing with other pathogens or just other antibodies as well. The third link is a doctor who addresses the issue of the balance of the Th1/Th2 helper cells and the symptoms he notes when this is an issue. I think he has also worked with Dr. Stratton I believe.When testing for an infection, at least from my testing experience, it is sometimes difficult as an incorrect judgement may be made if the immune system is not functioning as it should and elevated antibodies are the only determinant to decide on a chronic state. After reading a brief amount from Dr. Stratton and Dr. Wheldon mentioning the effects of Cpn in regards to HHV-6 and EBV I have put them aside and focused on the bacterial problem thinking in time my body will resolve them on its own. My doctors had really no issues about antibiotic use (CAP) to treat infection as they are generally low risk while they were much more resistant to antivirals as the long term effects could be harmful especially if not needed. After 15 months on CAP and increasing my Vitamin D blood level greatly I am showing corrections in my Th1/Th2 balance. I have watched these for many months now indirectly with testing. My doctors use Tetanus Antitoxoid, a very common and inexpensive test to hint for immune system problems, to look at the Th2 response. I also test for NK cells percent to hint at the Th1 response. The results are very profound with myself as I have a very high Tetanus Antitoxoid response, one was 6.5 and around one is typical I was told. My NK cells percent was quite low, two percent, with around 15 percent as the normal range as defined by Quest Labs. Now at the one year mark on CAP-Wheldon and Vitamin D supplementation it is correcting to Tetanus Antitoxoid around four and NK cells in the midrange around 13 percent or so.I also have anomalies with Mycoplasma, Measles, German Measles, HHV-6 and greater than five oligoclonal bands from a Lumbar Puncture. Recent research is showing strong links of Cpn infection to the oligoclonal bands from a Lumbar Puncture.I hope this may be of some help and not added to confusion.  Maybe the links will help your doctors as well. page 3:http://www.serion.de/uploads/mit_download/Chlamydia-V11-E.pdfhttp://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9789514284007/http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diagnosis/cheneyis.html

Cpn, Mycoplasma, Chronic EBV, M.S.(MRI, Spinal Tap-greater than 5 oligoclonal bands and VEP), PANDAS(OCD). Wheldon CAP (started 12/08), Azithromycin/Clarithromycin(12/09), Lithium, Lamictal, NAC(2.4g/day), D3(15,000IU/day)

Hi Moxy~Thanks for your long and detailed response.  Out of curiosity, have your IgG and IgA antibody titers dropped with CAP?One of the doctors I see is familiar with the TH1/TH2 imbalance.  He may have tested my immune system.  (I think he did...and nothing too out of the ordinary was found.)   I do plan on asking both doctors about immune testing when I see them.  I know my NK cells have been tested, but I don't have time at the moment to go back and look up the results (trying to get ready to go out of town)!I do know for various reasons that the viruses are a problem with me.  But, I think my approach now would be to treat the Cpn and see if beating that back will allow my immune system to not be so stressed so that the viruses, once latent will actually stay that way.  We'll see what the doctors say.  It does look like EBV has reactivated and my heart is noticing that, so that may be one reason to go after the EBV first. Thanks again for your post.  I'll post back after my appts.Best, Timaca

on valtrex 500 mg tidhttp://whispersfromthefather.me/   

I am following this post with as much understanding as seems possible. I feel somewhat challenged. I do admit that. If I could just relax? I'm working on that with a life coach. Pretty far afield, I know, but it does help as does the coaching - appts. done over telephone and taped for relistening.Timaca, Moxy, Jeanneroz, Mac - your knowledge, whether correct or not, is truly incredible. I thank you.I also thank everyone else ,without names posted in this post, for their experiences and knowledge.Now off to my exercise bike and breakfast with antis. 2 hours gone by following rifadin. Day goes on.......

diagnosed MS Jan.2000 ,  chronic neurological lyme disease Nov.2002.doxy 100 mg. 1BID. roxy.150 mg.? BID,adding rifampin soon, pulsed tini. every 3 weeks, as of oct.17/08, rifampin,naltrexone (LDN),NAC, nystatin, major wheldon supplemrnts daily,

Timaca,   With regarding the Cpn IgG and IgA testing results my IgA level has dropped one titer at the last test interval and the IgG has not changed.  The IgA has also dipped down once before I started CAP and then went back up so I will not interpret much into this until I get two consistent results in a row or more, I test Cpn Antibodies through Quest Labs about every three months or so for about two years now.

Cpn, Mycoplasma, Chronic EBV, M.S.(MRI, Spinal Tap-greater than 5 oligoclonal bands and VEP), PANDAS(OCD). Wheldon CAP (started 12/08), Azithromycin/Clarithromycin(12/09), Lithium, Lamictal, NAC(2.4g/day), D3(15,000IU/day)

Timaca, if you are taking both rifampicin and doxycycline, that is all you need.  When I as taking rifampicin I stopped doxycycline and continued roxithromycin, on doctor’s orders, but I could have done it the other way round...........................Sarah A Journey through Light and Shadow

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.