Some Answers to Concerns About Long-Term Antibiotics

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Answers to Concerns About Long-Term Antibiotics

Many doctors, and patients, raise concerns about the long-term effects or side effects of antibiotics, and are frightened of the CAPi’s because of this. Doctors, especially, need a little support for going against the grain of their training.

On the issue of side effects-
As I noted in a ThisIsMs post, the side effects of MS are devastating disability and death. Kinda puts a scale on things, doesn’t it? Similarly:

  • The side effects of Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgiai are minimally functional existence, depression, unrelenting pain.
  • The side effects of Rheumatoid Arthritis are unrelenting pain and encroaching disability and dysfunction.
  • The side effects of Alzheimer’s Disease are… well, you get the picture.


The side effects of the antibiotics commonly used in CAP’s for Cpni are intestinal upset from killing bowel flora, nausea if not taken with food, and some idiosyncratic effects for different people. All of these are transient, and mild or can be handled with counter agents (such as supplementing bowel flora in between antibiotic dosages).

The main side effects patients with Cpn have are actually die-off reactions from Cpn bacterial kill. Patients who do not have Cpn (or other significantly endotoxic bacteria) will not have these typical die-off reactions to Cpn. These, then, are not “side effects” but actually main effects.

Long term antibiotic use is harmful- Many antibiotics, especially the tetracycline family such as the doxycycline used in most CAP’s or minocycline, have been used long term (i.e. for years) without harmful effects. They have been used this way as immunomodulators, in low dose protocolsi (such as for arthritis) and at regular doses for acne.

Flagyli/Tinidazole are potentially carcinogenic-
Studies of carcinogenic effects are done on rats with huge doses not used in humans, and are taken continuously to produce these effects. This is another good reason why these medications are pulsed in the CAP's rather than taken continuously. Note: Cpn left to proliferate in tissues is potentially carcinogenic as well.

Doesn’t long term use of antibiotics create bacterial resistance?

The use of two anti-replication antibiotics which work on different proteins in the replication process (e.g. doxycycline and azithromycin combo) is done specifically to minimize the possibility of resistance. Taking NACi to kill the infectious Elementary Bodyi stage of the Cpn organism and Flagyl/Tinidazole further minimizes resistance because, as Dr. Charles Strattoni noted in an article by this name, “Dead Bugs Don’t Mutate.” Additionally, these antibiotics are not the ones used to treat the dire acute disorders where potential resistance could bbe fatal such as acute septicaemia, acute meningitis etc. So any potential resistance is unlikely to influence treatment of such emergency disorders.

Won’t antibiotics cause yeast infectionsi?
If you don’t supplement regularly with probiotic flora you can get intestinal Candida imbalance (dysbiosis). Supplementation, plus appropriate use of antifungals for existing infections (nystatin, diflucan, oregano oil, etc.) will prevent this.

On a related note: Cpn can infect the bowel quite significantly. Dr. David Wheldoni has observed, "The resolution of fungal infections is quite remarkable. I've seen people with long-term dermatomycoses (unresponsive to antifungals) which have paradoxically resolved with Cpn treatment." Many of us with what we thought was chronic yeast infection noticed that after a month or two on antibiotics our “yeast problem” resolved quite a bit. The problem was, in fact, that bowel Cpn was the more central problem, and as it resolved so did other bowel problems. Resolving bowel Cpn also enhances the bowel immunei system, since Cpn can infect immune cells. Additionally, the secondary porphyriai can cause bowel and stomach problems that resolve as the Cpn infection causing the porphyria resolves.

To summarize-
You can reinforce with your doctor:
That the “side effects” of otherwise untreatable diseasesi are much more significant than the side effects of these common antibiotics.
That these antibiotics were especially chosen to have minimal long term effects,
That they are used long-term for other diseases simply as immune modulators,
That the more toxic ones (e.g. Flagyl) are used in pulses minimizing their harm potential,
That the dual abxi prevents resistance from arising in long term use,
That the gut flora effects can be readily balanced by probiotic flora supplementsi and by anti=yeast medications (e.g. nystatin, diflucan) or herbs.
That the use of NAC instead of amoxicillini not only further protects gut flora, but protects the liver as well.
 

Comments

Paul, I have not found at all that you have been clear to distinguish your own ideas from Stratton's. Indeed, puzzling out which are yours and which are his has been difficult. Sometimes in conversations with me you have figured that I agreed with you on something, when really I had made a serious objection to it, albeit perhaps in language too technical to be understood. So I wouldn't be surprised if the same had happened at times in your talks with Stratton: you might think he agreed with you, when that was not the case. Using the word "we" allows you to slur over such things, whereas if you explicitly attributed something to Stratton, you'd be taking clear responsibility for any errors you might make in representing something he said.

As for the standards for the use of the word we, to quote a memoir by one of Admiral Rickover's subordinates:

One time he [Rickover] caught me using the editorial we, as in "we will get back to you by..." He explained brusquely that only three types of individual were entitled to such usage: "The head of a sovereign state, a schizophrenic, and a pregnant woman. Which are you, Rockwell?"

And I certainly have the authority to use "we".

Oh. The word "we" was used by monarchs; it derives from the period when the Divine Right of Kings was asserted: it meant God and I. Latterly, the idea of the DRK having become rather faded, the word "we" was used in a seigneurial way by a leader of an institution or nation.

To be quite honest I would feel very uncomfortable having another person speak on my behalf; and I would feel very uncomfortable indeed having another person linking his or her ideas with mine so that the two could not be told apart.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension">i (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Paul, if you have access to pure metronidazolei in the lab there, please consider making up a solution of it and dipping a pH meter in it, to try to validate that that pKa is actually correct and a good indication of what the acidity of the substance is. I've considered trying that experiment myself, as it's quite simple; but I only have pills, which include other ingredients that would obscure the results.

It's been known for numbers in reference books to be wrong. For over half a century, all the standard reference books quoted the density of liquid fluorine as 1.108, when actually it is 1.50. If they can get that wrong (a simple fact about one of the elements), they certainly can get the pKa of metronidazole wrong; pKa is sometimes important since it can affect drug absorption, but metronidazole is so well absorbed that its pKa doesn't matter for that. So you may be the first person to really care what the pKa of metronidazole is; and when people don't really care, things often get measured wrong and then not corrected. Also, even if that pKa number is correct, it is only simple acids, with just one ionizable hydrogen atom, for which a single pKa value can be used to calculate pH; other molecules can have multiple pKa values, and can have basic groups that partially or fully cancel out the acidity of the acidic groups.

The Merck Index says that the pH of a saturated solution of metronidazole is 5.8. If that number is correct, it means that it isn't an acid, but rather almost neutral: either the pKa number is simply wrong, or there are other factors that overwhelm it.

"Anti biotics should be avoided coz sometimes they create great irritation."

Ah! How nice to have a profound microbiological opinion!

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension">i (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Just looking for supporting material (peer reviewed) on 'bowel cpni'- i have hundreds of publications some of which Stratton has given to me personally (last year on a research trip) however I can't find anything on specifically 'bowel cpn'

 

On a related note: Cpn can infect the bowel quite significantly. Dr. David Wheldoni<i< has observed, "The resolution of fungal infectionsi is quite remarkable. I've seen people with long-term dermatomycoses (unresponsive to antifungals) which have paradoxically resolved with Cpn treatment." Many of us with what we thought was chronic yeast infection noticed that after a month or two on antibioticsi our “yeast problem” resolved quite a bit. The problem was, in fact, that bowel Cpn was the more central problem, and as it resolved so did other bowel problems. Resolving bowel Cpn also enhances the bowel immunei<i< system, since Cpn can infect immune cells. Additionally, the secondary porphyriai<i< can cause bowel and stomach problems that resolve as the Cpn infection causing the porphyria resolves.

Bec Mills

Soft Tissue Therapist

I don't want to get involved with class warfare, but maybe one of you guys could direct me to a website where I can get some answers / advice.

RRMsi for about 30 years, now segued into SPMSi.

Started with Doxycycline, but this gave a rash and internal plumbing difficulties, so now taking Minocycline 50mg twice daily. Also Azithromycin 250mg twice daily on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. About to start with Metronidiazole 400mg three time daily.

I appreciate ny dvice you can give me and Happy New Year.

 

Rgds

Not sure what 'class warfare' has to do with anything, but what, exactly are you asking.  You would like direction as to what, precisely?  

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Class warfare: hmm.  Maybe you mean fourth form against upper fifth?  You were asking about a website where you can get answers and advice.  Well you are here: welcome, so ask away............Sarah 

A Journey through Light and Shadow

 

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

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