so taking NAC alone is counter-productive?

This is my 4th time restarting NAC. I haven't officially been diagnosed with chlamydia pneumoniae, but have noticed that each time I take NAC, it tends to prolong and worsen my sporadic infection-like symptoms, such as a sore throat, malaise, etc. I also notice more GI distress, more obnoxious-smelling gas (sorry!) and a terrible odor on my breath. 

I've been trying to ride it out this time, and am into my 5th week, presently taking 1200mg a day, but there doesn't seem to be any reprieve from the symptoms. So I'm wondering if I just need to stick with it, or if in fact I'm causing more problems? The reason I ask is because I've seen several posts here reference the fact that NAC will push the virus into a replicating state, and that without the adjunctive use of an antibiotic, you end up doing more harm than good.

Is this true? Should I discontinue the NAC until I've been evaluated by a doctor specializing in chronic infections?  

I would say taking NAC alone for long time before cap can be counter-productive. You will force the bug into persistent state. I would not do that. Taking NAC alone after cap as a preventative, when there is a minimum cpn load, is another thing.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

for what it's worth, i emailed David Wheldon who had this to say:

 

In answer to your question, I very much doubt if NAC will drive C. pneumoniae into a replicating state. NAC may be expected to work by opening the C. pneumoniae elementary body (a kind of spore) outside the host cell, causing it to open prematurely and thus perish. The widespread death of extracellular EBs can be expected to give flu-like symptoms. I don't think NAC without antibiotics would be counter-productive. 

Then I am sorry for mystification. I wrongly concluded it from the fact penicillin was proved to cause persistence in chlamydias.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

D W

It's an easy conclusion to draw, Lala. Penicillins have some action against chlamydiae, and, as you say, provoke persistence. NAC has no known antibacterial powers. (I once did minimum inhibitory concentrations of NAC against common pathogens and found no activity at concentrations which could be achieved in the body.)
D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Nice quote from Dr Wheldon

 

DAILY:  NAC 2400MG , DHEA sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

So then what is the persistent state in Cpn?

Is that the cryptic form?

DAILY:  NAC 2400MG , DHEA sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

I do not agree, Norman. I was feed by penicillin whole my early childhood due to neverending pneumonia. Later I developed CFS. I think the penicllin treatment was one of the worst things to take for cpn. Moreover I have never felt better after it.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

Yes, "persistent state" and "cryptic form" are the same things.

There are plenty of lab studies showing Cpn going into a persistent state when hit by penicillin. But when they withdraw the penicillin, it goes right back into the replicating state. So penicillin doesn't help much; it just gives a temporary pause in the infection. But it doesn't hurt, either.

I don't see anything to suggest otherwise in your account, Lala: it indicates that penicillin didn't cure you, but not that you were worse with penicillin than you'd have been if you had been given nothing. Of course an antibiotic that actually killed the chlamydiae would have been even better.

I would like to see some study, where they give penicillin long term to the subject with chlamydia infection, Norman. If you have a link, please post it. I think there is a difference, if you take penicillin once per life for a couple of days or if you take it often and in the long term. The same difference like if you take atb for two weeks for cpn or cap for many years.  I am convinced, that penicillin significantly worsened my state.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

I had a pretty major attack shortly after taking penicillin, and I've always wondered if it was the cause. I have had MS symptoms for many years, but I've never had a debilitating attack before or after this time. I usually just have peroids of dizzines or feeling generally unwell.  Could be that there were too many returning to replicating form at once after I stopped penicilin, prompting a significant immune response? Of course, MS is so unpredictable that I'll never know, but that's one antibiotic I won't take again. 

Started CAP on 12/05/2010 for RRMS || Abx: 200mg Doxy / 250mg Azith T, Th, S / Metronidazole 400mg tid, M-F every 2 weeks || Supplements: Vit C 1g, NAC 600mg x2, Vit D 4000iu, Alpha-lipoic acid 200mg x2, Magnesium 300mg, Omega-3, Vit E 300mg&

Lala, I haven't seen a study like that, and there's not much point in my looking for one now, since penicillin isn't a recommended antibiotic to treat chlamydia with (either by this website's standards or by anyone's standards); there is little chance that anyone has done such a study. It probably couldn't even be conducted today in the US, as it'd violate ethics rules (which say that if there is an effective treatment, you have to give it).

There are certainly ways in which penicillin might hurt despite slowing down the bacteria. The way Christina (if I have the name right) proposes is one: it could deceive the immune system into thinking the bacteria are gone, and make it relax its vigilance. Then when they re-emerge, you get slammed. My point is just that persistence is just a temporary state the bacteria go into and out of with ease, not some sort of superpowers that they get when bitten by a radioactive penicillin. The body itself puts Cpn into the persistent state, by generating interferon-gamma. In fact, most of it has to be in the persistent state, most of the time; or else it would be replicating so fast that it'd kill you quickly.

Norman, I only wanted to say that penicillin is not harmless for us with cpn, as you suggested previously. Certainly was not for me. I was using it long before Chernobyl, so it was not radioactive. :)

Btw: Nuclear fallout was proved to cause immune deficiency and problematic treatment of even common pathogens.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8034395 Vitamin D3 was found to counteract some radioactive effects. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2826369 

"My point is just that persistencei is just a temporary state the bacteria go into and out of with ease, not some sort of superpowers that they get when bitten by a radioactive penicillin. "

I do not know, perhaps it depends on the way, how persistence was induced. When I used pyruvate or nitroimidazole alone (before cap) that encourage cpn to grow, I observed the effect quite long after stopping medcs. I can imagine, that if I am inducing persistence in long term, organism will get use to this state and it will only slowly revert back to replicating state. I think we know too few about this problem and most of it are speculations or our personal experiences.

 

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

Lucky Pierre, I got runny nose when I started NAC and some burning in my chest and in my neck. It subsided during few days.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

Lala, that study doesn't prove a thing about radioactive fallout and the immune system. It is hard to even call it suggestive. They just looked at whole-population trends over time, not even doing statistics on individual people. They could probably find a similar correlation between immune system function and stock market prices, or women's skirt lengths, or global warming.

As for that vitamin D3 study, it's not at all about protection from radiation that you might encounter in the environment. It's a study where they try to figure out where vitamin D goes in the body, by radiolabeling it (adding a tritium atom to it), so that they can distinguish the vitamin D that they added from other vitamin D, by testing for radiation. In other words, they purposefully made radioactive vitamin D, and fed it to rats. The only protection they observed was that if the rats were already full of normal vitamin D, they didn't absorb as much of the radioactive stuff.

You just convinced me to be positively religious about taking my vitamin D, Norman.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

There are many sources on the net regarding radioctivity fallout and health consequences. Medical consequences of the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant accident: experience of 15-year studies full article is paid, but abstract is for free.
 
About how radioactive contamination can influence immune system:
The study basically measures radioactive Strontium 90 (Sr90) in children’s teeth and in drinking water supplies.  Strontium is an essential nutrient important to bone structure and health.  The radioactive form, Sr90, can be taken up into teeth and bones where it basically radiates the bone marrow.  This constant bombardment damages red  blood cells and white blood cells (the foundation of our immune system!).  Its breakdown products can also travel to other organs such as the brain, pancreas, breast and prostate.  The resulting anemia, immune deficiency, osteoporosis,  leukemia and other types of cancer can be easily predicted.
 
As for vitamin D, if you eat contaminated food, then you eat also contaminated vitamin D. Then it is better to be loaded with D3 previously.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

Contaminated food good point Lala.  In this global economy it always surprises me were the veggies are from now that our stores identify (attempt?) what comes from where.
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"What, someone's about to poison you with radioactive vitamin Di? Hell of a strange way of poisoning someone, that would be. "

LOL - No, I'm not a character in a Robert Ludlum spy novel.  I only meant it seems to be protective against darn near everything, therefore I'll be making sure I keep taking my 15,000iu/day.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Poison Vitamin D Ha ha

DAILY:  NAC 2400MG , DHEA sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

No, contaminated food actually doesn't mean that the vitamin D is contaminated. In fact, it probably isn't. Radioactive iodine isn't going to get incorporated into vitamin D, because the vitamin D molecule doesn't contain any iodine atoms. Nor would strontium get incorporated into vitamin D, since it doesn't have any strontium atoms, nor anything similar, like calcium. Vitamin D is made of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, none of which are big components of fallout. In fact, there's a fair chance that vitamin D would make your body take in strontium more readily, the way it does for calcium, and thus make your radiation dose higher.

Anyway, there's no question that high doses of radiation damage the immune system. High doses of radiation fry the bone marrow, which produces white blood cells. And the doses from Chernobyl were quite serious: the reactor's core not only exploded and was exposed directly to the air, but burned for days, the graphite in it burning like coal. Estimates are that almost all of its radioactive iodine was released, along with something like half of the other fission products. The cleanup was the typical brutal, poorly-managed Soviet affair. Iodine pills were not distributed as they should have been. It didn't help that many locals thought that alcohol was an antidote to radiation poisoning.

But immune system damage from tiny doses of radiation (thousands or millions of times less than the doses which fry the bone marrow) is another matter. There's a reason why both of your links to such claims have been to stuff from Ernest Sternglass: he's one of a very few scientists who believe it -- perhaps the only one. Here's what the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission thinks of his "tooth fairy" stuff:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/tooth-fairy.html

What about xrays at the dentist ?

 

 

DAILY:  NAC 2400MG , DHEA sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

Thanks Norman

DAILY:  NAC 2400MG , DHEA sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

Lucky.Pierre, If I had what you are complaining about and thought that it was in relation to the NAC I would personally stop it at least for now.

I believe that certain individual have difficulty with this supplement.  I did not mention it earlier because it has been a while and I cannot remember the explaination.   Most here have not trouble with it but like most things there are often individual that reaction to some supplements or medications that others take with ease.  We may be similar but some have individual differences.

You wrote, "This is my 4th time restarting NACi. I haven't officially been diagnosed with chlamydia pneumoniae, but have noticed that each time I take NAC, it tends to prolong and worsen my sporadic infection-like symptoms, such as a sore throat, malaise, etc. I also notice more GI distress, more obnoxious-smelling gas (sorry!) and a terrible odor on my breath. 

I've been trying to ride it out this time, and am into my 5th week, presently taking 1200mg a day, but there doesn't seem to be any reprieve from the symptoms. So I'm wondering if I just need to stick with it, or if in fact I'm causing more problems? The reason I ask is because I've seen several posts here reference the fact that NAC will push the virus into a replicating state, and that without the adjunctive use of an antibiotic, you end up doing more harm than good.

Is this true? Should I discontinue the NAC until I've been evaluated by a doctor specializing in chronic infectionsi?     

Then you posted this yesterday:

Does anyone else notice difficulty breathing and/or chest tightness on NACi? Is this a temporary side-effect?       
  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Hey Louise,

thanks for picking up on my question. yes, the breathing issue was becoming troublesome, so I spoke to my GP who suggested I discontinue NAC. I've read several other accounts online where people have experienced similar respiratory-depression type issues 

When I started with NAC I somehow knew that 600mg at one dose will be too much for me. So I started with 200mg. I had horrible reactions I was afraid I was going to die. I couldn´t breath I couldn´t speak and I couldn´t even produce any voice. I can´t remember other reactions as this reaction was very strong and other were maybe minor and I couldn´t realize them. This very bad state lasted about two hours after taking NAC and then went  away and I was fine. So I knew that I was not going to die of NAC and I continued in taking it in the dose of 200 mg. After each dose I was sitting, drinking water and waiting till the reaction was away. I increased the dose by taking 200 mg 3 times a day and when I managed 4 times a day and there were no reactions I started to take 600mg dose - the reaction was the same as at the beginning of 200mg dose. I believe that my reactions were so bad as I had plenty of EB´s. At that time my blood tests for Cpn were also neg. So try with lower dose and then increase.

MS for more than 30 years, WP since July 08, break Jan 09-March 09. NAC 2x600mg, Doxy 2x100mg, Roxi 2x150mg, Entizol in pulzes, LDN, supplements.Since May 2013 without abx.

Lucky.Pierre,  Good to know you contacted your GP.   All that gastric response has me wondering if you should be looking at your bowel flora situation.  Gas like you report is a symptom of dysbiosis.   Which is something that you can try to bring balance to by educating yourself, making some changes to your diet, and taking probiotics.   

There have been a few topics, perhaps many along this line.  HOwever this is not my area of concentration as I have been fortunate not to have had to look to deeply into it, bowel dysbyosis that is.

Some seem to have a concentration of CPn and other bacterial overgrowth in the bowels. 

Hopefully there will be someother comments with suggestions for some books or solid websites that could be of help to you.      Many of us have multiple facets of our dysfunctions, make it interesting to say the best but also complex as what works for one almost always doesn't work for another and they you have to pick and chose which might be best for your particular mix.

What country is your infectious disease specialist in?      In the US they are generally not concerned with chronic presentations of diseases mostly acute phases,  this is not true for all but I have head so any stories that I am sad to say I think it is pretty common, perhaps in the future (when we are long gone) that will be different, when the old ones move on too and the younger more open ones listen more to research.

Best of luck you certainly have the persistence to follow throught with feeling worse to ultimately feel better, a hard thing to do,  many give up by the 6 month mark because of this, I have seen it happen to many times.

It would be great if you would start a blog about your treatment experiences and challenges.   I cannot tell how helpful this has been for me reading past blogs of posters who have similar presentations of illness as mine, they certainly played it forward in doing so.

Wishing you success in your search for wellness.     Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support