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4dogday
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Question on Goal for Vitamin D Level on tests

Body

 I just got blood work back that listed my Vit D level at 63.  The nurse (primary general physician's nurse, not my CPn treating physician's nurse) said I could lower my dose to 2000 a day.  I take 4000 now.  I have the feeling I should not lower it.  The recommended range was 32 to 100, I think, and the paper said optimal levels for health were good at 32 or above.  Is 32 enough, or are we looking for much higher levels.  Is 63 great, or should I try to get it higher???  It is not only critical for me for CPn, but evidently also to prevent recurrence of cancer, as even my primary physician

Comments

4dogday,      This is just my opinion and what I am doing.  I think medicine and government made a big mistake on their estimates for Vitamin D levels and the latest research is validating this.  We evolved with a very large portion of our diet from the oceans as we lived on the coasts. Now what fish we do have is processed and I am sure nutrient levels reduced.    There is a bit of research on the Internet I have found where very high levels of Vitamin D are supplemented to individuals and their liver and kidney functions checked and no ill effects were observed. They mentioned values of 50,000 to 150,000 IU/day, a good amount. The Eskimos live on a total fish diet and they are not falling over dead from Vitamin D poisoning and they have almost no M.S..  I have no idea what their blood levels are but it must be high.   I looked at the chart of the article linked below and decided to pick 75ng/mL as my goal for now and maybe go up from there in a few months. I take D3 in capsules but not smart enough to make a comment either way but I know someone else here can. Vitamin D and Omega 3's are the first on the list of food for your immune system my immunologists said.Hope this helps http://www.thinkorbeeaten.com/theknoll/Use%20of%20Vitamin%20D%20in%20Clinical%20Practice.pdf

Cpn, Mycoplasma, Chronic EBV, M.S.(MRI, Spinal Tap-greater than 5 oligoclonal bands and VEP), PANDAS(OCD). Wheldon CAP (started 12/08), Azithromycin/Clarithromycin(12/09), Lithium, Lamictal, NAC(2.4g/day), D3(15,000IU/day)

My doc says D should be above 40.I read a couple articles that said the range for some labs has been expanded from 20-100 to 30-150 so the optimal should be about 75-80. If I were you I'd probably stick with your 4000 and check again in a few months and if your levels start pushing past 75 then cut back a bit.

Rodney,   My first test had a level of 20ng/mL and at the year mark 56ng/mL.  I was not sure how much to take then but looking back I could of got there much quicker.  I think an initial test and then adding a fair amount based on that to your diet and then another test at 3 months getting to a good level should not take more than 6 months. It is playing an important role with me to better my immune system but that is just a guess.

Cpn, Mycoplasma, Chronic EBV, M.S.(MRI, Spinal Tap-greater than 5 oligoclonal bands and VEP), PANDAS(OCD). Wheldon CAP (started 12/08), Azithromycin/Clarithromycin(12/09), Lithium, Lamictal, NAC(2.4g/day), D3(15,000IU/day)

Hi DD4There are, I think, at least four of us now with cancer who are here and walking around breathing.  If it were not for this site...I, for one, would be doing none of those things.My level is around 87.  I take 8000 iu daily and my husband takes 4000.  He stands at the mid fifties, and did this protocol for sixteen months several years ago.  He is an amazing 68 year old pediatrician who works minimum sixteen hour days - every day (that counts our work in the barn).  Several months ago when mine went to 87 I dropped to an average of 7000 and within three months it had dropped to 64.  I have gone back up to 8000 and will stay there til...I have a strong feeling that our very hard-working bodies, while trying so desperately to repair us, use tremendous amounts of Vit D, among the many other things we feed them each day - it can be a challenge sometimes to choke down all thiose pills, but they are doing their job.Rica 

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

I'm taking 10,000iu/daily and plan to stay there. I don't get much sun, so I open the sunroof as I drive, sit in the sunny spot on the front porch as I open the mail...just a few little changes. I'm having my d level tested next week, so it'll be interesting to see what the number is.  I know I miss it when I lay off the vitamin d3 - really feel draggy.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

My level in December 09 was 65 after being on Vit D3 10,000 for 14 months.  This is why it is so important to get tested we are all very individual in the levels we attain from the amounts we take in.   In general it is considered wise to get a baseline before you start then test 3 months after you start your first dosage amount.   I good number of folks seem to get into the 60 ng/mL range from the 4000 - 5000 IU dosage.   A am an exception and worked up to the 10,000 level, the 4000- 6000IU dosage did not get me above the 40's ng/mL range.     I know a number of people who went right up to the 60's with 4000 - 5000 IU per day so it does vary.I am now taking 15,000 looking to atain something closer to the 80ng/mL range or perhaps a little higher.   I have had NO viral or bacterial infections this winter no colds or flus.   Neither has my husband and he is at the 4000IU/day dosage, he needs to get tested to now exactly where he falls but healthwise, with people dropping all around him this winter he caught nothing from the co-workers.   If you look under the bookmarks forum you will find some video links to Vitamin D talks at UCSD regarding Vitamin D, they are from this past winter season, and there is one that talks about toxicity in restrospective analysis of studies done and that toxicity is not very prevalent until over 150 - 200ng/mL.  Of course they are not reccomending high dose to bring your level up that high but it is interesting and gives you food for thought.It will likely be later May or June before I can get another Vit D level requsition from my MD.   If I were concerned, I would do the LEF.org lab evaluation but currently,  I feel no need to do this for myself.Some are comfortable at the lower range of the lab reference range and some at the upper range,  guess I am an upper range person!Louise  

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Isn't there an issue with Vitamine D levels and fat too ?I read somwhere, that Vit D is fat-solvable, meaning it dissolves much faster in fat. I don't mean that you should swallow the pills with fat.. But you need some fat in your diet to dissolve it and thus use it..  I think it was mentioned in some geriatric text. Since many old people in Norway have Ospeoporoses (brittle-bone), and take lots of supllements of Vit D.. And not getting the wanted level, even on high dosage.. Just as a comment..

Eirik 2x100mg Doxy every day, 250mg Azith 3 days/week, 2000mg NAC daily, Vitamins B, C, D, and Multivitamins/minerals, Q10, Omega 6/9 and probiotic supplements.

I often take my Vitamin D with my fish oil supplement and Vitamin K supplement at breakfast, which usually has fat in it as well.

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

I read the vitamin D comments with great interest, in particular because I was on a programme for 3 years where I think ( in hind sight) foolishly allowed my vitamin D levels get to very low levels. I am pleased that this protocol recognises and supports the latest literaure and research in this area about the importance of vit D. In terms of the type of vit D mentioned by 4 DD, I assume we are all taking D3. I have slowly raise my intake to 10,000iu a day ( at my neurologists request) and have had some die off issues along the way- which by the way , the neurologist does not understand. My level of vit D has changed from 15 (US measurement) to 35, after supplementation for a few months. I am going for another blood reading soon to keep a check on it. The neuro was a bit coy on the issue of what I should aim for as my level but said something like this is one of those areas where we can expect the reference ranges to continue to change as the findings from the research keep showing us the importance of this steroid in our bodies.

FMS/ME dx 2001. Started Wheldon Protocol 16 Jan. '10. Mino 100mg q 24 h. Roxy 150mg q 12h. Cholestyramine, LDN 0.75mg q 24 h. prophylactic migraine-topamax 75mg q 24h. migraines, headache, fatigue, sleep problems, body aches

Levels of 25-D greater than 50ng/ml have a stronger correlation with mortality than even levels below 20ng/ml. Even though correlation does not prove causality I would beware of disrupting human biochemisty by taking massive doses of a substance (D3) that is primarily immuno-supressive.  http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/168/15/1629/IOI80065F2http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content-nw/full/168/15/1629/IOI80065F1 mortality starts to increase above 35ng/ml in above graph. http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/djn152 Conclusion: The findings of this large prospective study do not support  the hypothesis that vitamin D is associated with decreased risk  of prostate cancer; indeed, higher circulating 25(OH)D concentrations may be associated with increased risk of aggressive disease. Im my opinion it flys in the face of evolutionay biology to think that most of the human population should take massive doses of a seco-steroidal supplement.  51% of healthy Hawiian surfers who don't use sun screen in Summer have levels of 25-D less than 30ng/ml.I think people have been brainwashed into taking D3 by those who do not fully understand human biochemisty, and doing so in the long term is apt to be dangerous. We did not evolve to poison ourselves with un-natural levels of pre-hormones. You can get all the vitamin D3 you need by eating healthy food and getting a bit of sun exposure. D3 or 25-D does not prevent cancer, although 1,25-D can in vitro. One should not compare apples with oranges.Randal

"Isn't there an issue with Vitamine D levels and fat too ?"

 Yes, I've read that too. You should always take D with a meal containing some dietary fat. It will be poorly absorbed on an empty stomach or with food containing little or no fat. So if you're taking huge doses and your D levels are not going up, check that you are taking it with some food containing fat. How much fat is required, I have not been able to find out. If you are, for some reason, on a fat-restricted diet it might be better to take 1,000iu of D with each meal rather than 3,000iu with one meal, for example, since you're more likely to get a better fat/D ratio that way.

Randal987,   There is a great deal of recent research on the positive effects of Vitamin D coming out in the past few years.  It is doubtful that anyone totally understands the "human biochemistry", even a group of educated persons in that area of science, the technology in testing alone just was not there until recently.  A long way to go but getting better everyday.   As far as "flys in the face of evolutionary biology" we are living more differently in the past 100 years then ever before that is known.  Much more time indoors, the diet from the oceans is no where near what it was years ago as most villages and towns were on the coast or rivers that supplied their food intake.  Food is processed now, never really before, we live in much more densely populated areas and closed indoor environments where the pathogenic exposure is greatly increased, travel as never before carrying new pathogens and strains to others.  Exposure to super germs, pesticides, chemicals in the buildings around us, pollutions and more that surely put the immune system in a stepped up mode.    Some people for whatever reason require a vitamin D supplement to achieve similar blood levels, genetics, diet and more I am sure.  People with the same UV exposure have different levels of Vitamin D.  Low levels of Vitamin D are commonly found in persons with M.S. and I am one.  Eskimo's have very little sun exposure and practically no M.S. but consume massive amounts of fish in there diet.  I live and have many years in one of the highest levels of UV radiation in the world and still have low Vitamin D level.  I have been supplementing with D for over 15 months now and I am having improvements in my immune system and feel it is playing a significant role in that.  I do not believe Vitamin D is harming me in any fashion and that it is helping my body fight infection and correct other components in my immune system.  I have pathogens and antibodies from them creating lesions in my brain and feel from what I have read and what my body is saying, and it gets final say in everything, that Vitamin D is helping.  I will take the risk of dying from Vitamin D poisoning, zero I believe, and stopping the process of turning into a earth worm any day. 

Cpn, Mycoplasma, Chronic EBV, M.S.(MRI, Spinal Tap-greater than 5 oligoclonal bands and VEP), PANDAS(OCD). Wheldon CAP (started 12/08), Azithromycin/Clarithromycin(12/09), Lithium, Lamictal, NAC(2.4g/day), D3(15,000IU/day)

Red

Randal,Based on your few posts, I'm assuming you're a proponent of the Marshall Protocol.   The good news is that if you don't want to take Vit D3, you don't have to take it.  We know on this site, however, that nobody who is considered an expert on Vit D metabolism takes Marshall's theories seriously.   In fact most, seem to consider his theories dangerous... Good luck, however, in your endeavors...    

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-

Red, Thank you for your reply. I do endorse recovery through regaining VDR competence, but I feel Marshall is off base in many areas and is a bit of a sociopath. I would never have an electrical engineer guide me directly in clinical medicine. I have been studying Vitamin D extensively for 6 years and do feel that the reason that people who have lower 25-D levels is associated with chroinc intracellular infections that create elevations in 1,25-D.  We all know that it is 1,25-D that transcribes the VDR at normal human levels, and that VDR transcription is essential for transcribing antimicrobial peptides that can be tremendously important in fighting infections. It is known that at least some bacteria are able to create proteins that block (antagonise) the VDR. Using calcitriol (1,25-D) in any attempt to compete with the bacterial ligands is dangerous becasue of the very real potential for hyper calcemia, but other D analogs are able to displace this blockade and enable VDR recovery. Taking D3 actually lowers 1,25-D levels and contributes to immuno-suppression. I hate to see physicians and patients barking up the wrong tree in trying to treat L-form infections of any variety by taking a substance that will contribute to defeating their goals. Having tried several combined antibiotic protocols without VDR activation, I know that the difference is like night and day, and I  owe my health and recovery to restoration of vitamin D competence with addition of pulsed antibiotics. I do check in on you folks from time to time because you are kindred spirits, and I have things to learn from you that may be valuable for many people in the future. It however just drives me up the wall that you seem to be so uncritical of the foolish conclusions of so many vitamin D studies that fail to look at the role of intracellular bacteria in causing D dysregulation, and fail to understand that these infections cause an ineffective rise in 1,25-D levels. You see that vitamin D is important, but jump to the exact wrong conclusion that taking massive doses of a seco-steroid (D3) will help. Disrupting human biochemistry further in this fashion is only palliative and does not futher the goal of pathogen eradication. Randal

Randal, could you please link some relevant paper, which claims, that intracellular bacteria block VDR?

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFS and many problems 30 years

I had periodic bloodwork done yesterday.  Just heard from doc's office.  My D level is 31.5.  That is after taking 50,000 IU/week!  I am surprised at this.  The doc told me to increase the dosage to 100,000 IU/ week for one month and then we will see where the level is.  I was also told to get more sun(funny to have a doctor tell you that!)-and I live in Florida so I already get sun daily.  I don't lay out in the sun but I also don't use sunscreen unless I am going to be out for hours.  So I think this just shows even further proof how vitamin D is low in patients with MS.  Imagine what it would be if I had NOT been taking the 50,000IU/week.

 Started Vanderbilt protocol 1/9/08  Rifampin once a day, b12 injection monthly , vitamin D 50,000 IU weekly

LoriyasWhat are you taking - D2 or D3?  If you don't know, insist that "they" tell you!  Your levels are hard to believe if it has been D3.  I am looking forward to learning something that I have obviously missed!Rica

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

Lori, You might change brands of Vit D3, it is D3 that you are taking?And perhaps daily dosing with meals would actually work better in getting your level up.    I know MDs like the once a week approach so that folks do not vary by missing days etc.   But if your absorption is affected by some factor, I could go on and on about hypotheticals but.........What brand are you taking?   Is it an Rx vit D those are only D2 from my understanding.At 10,000IU D3 per day after 14 months at that dose with very few skipped doses, my level in December of 2009 was only 65ng/mL.    10,000 per day is 70,000 per week!   I upped it to 12,000 trying to get to the 80ng/mL range so that is that would be about 84,000/wk.    15,000/day would be 105,000/wk  I may be tested again in June.I have learned that I have a vitamin D Receptor mutation, guess that this may play into my difficulty getting my level of Vit D up over the past almost 3 years of trying !Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

OMG I feel so stupid.  I KNEW this was supposed to be D3 and assumed that was what I was getting.  I just googled it and it is vitamin D2.  Crap!  I have a call into the doc. I think I am going to have a problem with him because after talking with his nurse she thinks it is the same.  I keep telling her it is not.  It is so unlike me not to have checked this out a long time ago.  I can't believe this.  Thank you for bringing this to my attention.  Unbelievable.

 Started Vanderbilt protocol 1/9/08  Rifampin once a day, b12 injection monthly , vitamin D 50,000 IU weekly

OK here is where we are.  D3 does not come in Rx for as Louise said.  So I am to up the D2 to 100,000 IU per week for a month and use sun to convert it to D3.  We will then check the levels in a month and see where we are.  I am not, at this time, going to add D3 over the counter as I won't know what is actually working (increase of D2 and sun or addition of D3).  After I have the levels read in a month I will know what is working.  If I don't like the results I will change to D3 over the counter.  Ugh!

 Started Vanderbilt protocol 1/9/08  Rifampin once a day, b12 injection monthly , vitamin D 50,000 IU weekly

You are not stupid.  It really IS many doctors who simply don't know and rely on what they learned in med school.  Many of them, and I hate to add my own sister, an RN, seem to believe that discoveries stopped when they graduated.  Or, to be kinder, they just don't have time to spare the reading time.Rica 

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

D3 over the counter is sooooo inexpensive why waste time on the experiment.  JMHO, I think the experiment has gone on long enough now ;0).   Read some of the articles in Red's Vitamin D pages perhaps.     I think there is some info there regarding the comparison.  Maybe Red will be along to give you some pointers.  Or maybe you might pmessage him with a few questions to point you in the right direction.   In any case glad that you picked up on this difference.   Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Oh, another thought even if the sun did do a conversion?    What would you be doing in the winter.   Even as far south as you are people down there think it is real cold and cover up arms and legs just like we do in the north.Best to find out what you need as a "covered woman" you have been playing around with this now for some time and need to get serious.Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Thanks for your comments Rica and Louise.  It is not like I feel badly.  I just caught the descrepancy,  I can wait one month to see.  Then if I don't like the results I will switch.  I also have an email into Dr. S at Vanderbilt.  Want to see what he has to say.  Will update you when I know.

 Started Vanderbilt protocol 1/9/08  Rifampin once a day, b12 injection monthly , vitamin D 50,000 IU weekly

Keep in mind that the protection of vit D3 (in cancer)  is  dependent on the 25(OH)D.Breast cancer : 25(OH)D of 34 ng/ml gives a reduction of 30% and 50 ng/ml gives a reduction of 83%. (http://www.grassrootshealth.net/)

Retired MD PhD Urologist; very much interested in autoimmune disease100% healthy

Red

Hi Loriyas,I hate to second guess your doctor, but most of the Vitamin D experts recommend Vit D3 over Vit D2.  At best Vit D2 has been shown to be less effective.    At Worst, studies suggest it may result in unnatural metabolic by-products in the body.   Note the discussion on the prescription form of Vit D (Vit D2) and the resulting unnatural metabolic by-products in the 2nd to last paragraph on page 13 here:

Here's the article that the above article refers to in support of Vit D3 over Vit D2:

Perhaps it would be worth sending this information to your doctor?Good luck!  

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-

Lori, my concern was not that you feel badly with low vit D level it is you are at risk for a number of conditions with such a low level.     Please heed Andries and Red regarding making the shift to Vit D3 now.    I'll be a bit more outspoken that either of them just for balance.   Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Association of Prediagnostic Serum Vitamin D Levels with the Development of Basal Cell Carcinoma

 http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v130/n5/full/jid2009402a.htmlWe investigated the association between serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D) levels and basal cell carcinoma (BCC) risk in a nested case–control study at Kaiser Permanente Northern California (KPNC). A total of 220 case patients with BCC diagnosed after serum collection were matched to 220 control subjects. We estimated odds ratios (ORs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) using conditional logistic regression. Fully adjusted models included body mass index (BMI), smoking, education, sun-exposure variables, X-ray exposure, and personal history of cancer. For each measure of serum 25(OH)D (continuous, clinically relevant tertiles, quintiles), we found an increased risk of BCC in unadjusted models (OR=1.03, 95% CI 1.00–1.05, P<0.05; OR=3.98, 95% CI: 1.31–12.31, deficient vs. sufficient, test for trend P-value <0.01; OR=2.32, 95% CI: 1.20–4.50, 1st vs. 5th quintile, test for trend P-value 0.03). In fully adjusted models, the values attenuated slightly (OR=1.02, 95% CI 1.00–1.05, P<0.05; OR=3.61, 95% CI: 1.00–13.10, deficient vs. sufficient, t-trend P=0.03; OR=2.09 1st vs. 5th quintile, 95% CI: 0.95–4.58, t-trend P=0.11). Our findings suggest that higher prediagnostic serum 25(OH)D levels may be associated with increased risk of subsequent BCC. Further studies to evaluate the effect of sun exposure on BCC and serum 25(OH)D levels may be warranted.For every 1 ng ml–1 rise in serum 25(OH)D levels, there was a 3% increase in BCC risk. An added quadratic term for continuous 25(OH)D levels in the unadjusted model was not significant, indicating that a linear model better approximated the relationship between 25(OH)D and BCC risk (data not shown). Individuals who had clinically sufficient 25(OH)D levels (http://www.nature.com/__chars/greater/special/ges/black/med/base/glyph.gif30 ng ml–1) were at increased risk of BCC compared with those who were 25(OH)D deficient (<10 ng ml–1). 

Randal 987, in the first link, the last sentence in the second paragraph, under "Introduction"  reads:  

"Despite mounting evidence that vitamin D and its receptor are involved in cutaneous carcinogenesis, no studies to date have examined the association of serum vitamin D levels with BCC risk in humans."

JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni