Agents effective against Cpn RB's

Submitted by Jim K on Fri, 2008-08-15 19:45

Hi Jim, 

Why Mino over Doxy? Isn't the Doxy the go-to first in the Wheldon protocol?  

Thanks,
Corinna

Corinna | GFA. Wheldon Protocol: 4–8/08. Can't kill the yeast.

It's never been clear to me why one was listed as "preferred." Nonetheless, Dr. Stratton likes doxy because it's cheap and has a similar profile to mino. Some people find they do better on mino, others don't like it at all. I think it's all an equation of cost/benefit for any particular individual. I was going to try it for a while just to see, then looked at the cost and said, "No way!"

 

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25+yrs CFS & FMS. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BID, restarted Tini pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral

Clinda instead of a macrolid is Ok (Because of a dental abcess)? My doc said that clinda and macrolides like azi etc. together decrease each others potency. 

The main thing is targeting the cpn from 2 sides - right?

I hope that I am not creating resistance while on clinda and doxy?!

Male 38 years (Germany),CFIDS, IBS, Enterovirus, Cpn and Bartonella, Dientamoeba fragilis positive. Started Cap on 02/19/08, Currently taking Bactrim, Flagyl, soon adding Malarone and Clindamycin for suspected protozooa. 

I agree with Jim, the main reason more people don't take mino is the cost. Mino costs $1.30 a cap where as doxy can be had for $0.31 or possibly less. If money were no object I'd prefer mino over doxy though. First time I took mino I could barely walk straight. 

I'm not a doc, but I don't see why clinda and macrolides would necessarily decrease eachothers potency. Mino, Azithro and clinda are the 3 abx used in the Marshall Protocol, so I would have thought that they would be synergistic.

P.S. Jim, how about turning the spell check off next time? ;-) 

Hunter: Don't think - experiment

One thing about "preferred" is that it's patent-ese; part of making a patent is that you specify, in your "claims", all the solutions you're patenting, then list one as being the "preferred" solution. Commonly that's the thing you actually tried, and the others are there to make sure that nobody else can work around your patent. Since this patent probably had patent-attorney input to it at some point (the university's lawyers, or whatever), the "preferred" language could be sort of an artifact of the patenting process.

In any case, I've read that minocycline has about twice the penetration into the brain that doxycycline has, so that might be one reason.

Hi Garcia - the decrease of eachothers potency is listed in the interactions chapterof the package insert of clindamycin.

"I'm not a doc, but I don't see why clinda and macrolides would necessarily decrease eachothers potency. Mino, Azithro and clinda are the 3 abxi used in the Marshall Protocol, so I would have thought that they would be synergistic."

Male 38 years (Germany),CFIDS, IBS, Enterovirus, Cpn and Bartonella, Dientamoeba fragilis positive. Started Cap on 02/19/08, Currently taking Bactrim, Flagyl, soon adding Malarone and Clindamycin for suspected protozooa. 

Crap! Just saw it after your comment Garcia! Back to the drawing board...

 

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25+yrs CFS & FMS. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BID, restarted Tini pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral

Jim, am wondering since you are thinking of doing this chart over, if you might consider changing the order with the less toxic and less costly agent first in line?  And how about adding roxithromycin since this is an international site?

Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Louise- this chart is taken directly from the Mitchell/Stratton patent, so it's presented as "from the horses mouth" as a scientific reference. I wouldn't dream of altering it, or I'd be seen as the other end of the horse! The only change I made was turning off my spellcheck before I did the page shot (thanks Garcia!) to get rid of the red lines.

 

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25+yrs CFS & FMS. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BID, restarted Tini pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral

Well some of these are more toxic taken for extended periods than others so I hope that new folks fully investigate the situation and have detailed conversations with their providers.  Just my note of caution for those who may need it, such as myself!

Guess that is why I favor strarting out with the Wheldon Protocol just because of those reasons. 

Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Seemed advantageous to me to link THIS post on antibiotic MIC's Vs CPNi to this post on antibiotics to treat CPN RB phase.

While by no means can you say IN VITRO derived MIC's equate to IN VIVO results, the MIC differences could give thought to the rationale for periodically rotating antibiotics in the CAPi protocol.

Recently Marie, a long time CAPper reported significant reaction to Biaxin/clarithromycin after having been on Zithromax/azithromycin for over 2 years.

Looking at the MIC differences in clarithromycin and azithromycin in the MIC chart,  the substantial enhanced sensitivity of clarithromycin to CPN vs azithromycin is, to me, a plausible explanation of her brisk and intense response.

The more I come to understand the L-form infectionsi, L-form coinfections, understand the length of treatment needed - years, the more I consider that strategies of rotating through different agents periodically through treatment has merit, varying the doses to higher levels MAY well enhance treatment results as well as improve length/speed of treatment. 

Just thoughts...

Daisy - Husband on CAP 5/07.  Husband died from Acute Myelogenous Leukemia Secondary to the Infusion of Novantrone.  Ie - the treatment with the conventional MS drugs killed him.

Daisy on her own CAP 11/2012. 

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