MediTest
26 Jul 2019
Author
Emilyn Robinson Hill
Title

Antibiotic treatment

Body

I am long term sick with MS and wonder if I should try the CP antibiotics?  My GP is worried about prescribing these as she fears these antibiotics may wipe out my gut bacteria. This will make any future antibiotics that I might need not work. Is it something I should worry about and has anyone got any experiences they can share? 

Thank you

Comments

The effect of antibiotics on gut bacteria is a real concern.  Long term use of antibiotics is new to me (only on antibiotics for a short 5 weeks so far), but there are members on this site that have taken antibiotics for a very long time (i.e., >6 months).  So, I too am rather interested in the opinion/experiences of the seasoned veterans here.

When I could no longer walk or dress myself and I had lost all sensation everywhere, I was more worried about trying to save my own life than about wiping out my own gut bacteria. I had absolutely nothing to lose at that point by trying abx. To be honest, I never worried in the least bit about gut bacteria - though I did always take a good probiotic (at least 50 million) at least a couple of hours after abx, plus lots of kefir, kombucha, sauerkraut, natural yoghurt and bone broth. I also never worried about the future need for abx - if I hadn’t treated the infection I already had, I doubt there would have been any future to worry about. I’m afraid most GPs don’t have a clue about any of this, as their only experience is infections which they think can be resolved with a couple of weeks of abx. I took combined abx for six and a half years and don’t regret a moment of it.

Neuro symptoms & many health problems from 1989. NAC+all supps(04/11) CAP(05/11-10/17)

Dear Boadicea,

I understand what you may have felt. I feet the same when I see Sonal my daughter-in-law. She is very vivacious and full of life but unable to walk at all, without support or a walker. She is just 3.5 months into the protocol with only one pulse with metro done so far.

I was wondering whether the six and a half years of the protocol -- i assume you are on the intermittent abx now -- have improved your sensation and your walking or any other function.

I only ask -- it is a bit intrusive so please dont reply if you dont want to -- because you know like everyone else I worry whether Sonal will or will not improve on the abx. So far it would seem to be that she hasnt deteriorated,

Neena

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Boadicea, thank you for sharing your experience.  Your body/colon obviously tolerated antibiotics very well in order to take combined abx for 6+ years.  Tolerance varies from person to person, and it is for this reason that a Drug Product Sheet (required by the FDA) is enclosed in the packaging of every drug.  The success of "fecal transplants" as a therapy for certain diseases in some people indicates that their colons are not healthy and probably much more sensitive to antibiotics.

Emilyn, my experience was much like that of Boadicea, although I only took the antibiotics for a total of maybe four and a half years. With taking probiotics every day, some live yoghurt and/or another prebiotic, I finished that time with a totally healthy gut.

I was able to test whether the abx I had been consuming all that time, still worked a few years back, by taking five days worth of roxithromycin to sort out an infected thumb.  After two days I had stopped oozing pus around the nail bed and before the week was out, the thumb was right as rain.

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Emilyn, for the first time in my life, I must say that I don't know. Well, I don't know for certain, but am going to do a bit of hunting before dinner!

The trouble is that doctors and pharma companies seem to have finally got together and managed to stop people ordering antibiotics from abroad.  This was abut three weeks ago, although I had been thinking it might happen for years.  

All is not lost though, but I will now swap over and send you a private message!  Give me time to write it though.

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Sarah, you are probably correct about this crackdown on antibiotics lasting years.  The mania is just getting started here in Sweden.  This is a headline that appeared just a few days ago:

The antibiotic issue demands its Greta  

https://www.dagen.se/ledare/antibiotikafragan-kraver-sin-greta-1.1559277?paywall=true  Dagen.se requires a paid subscription, but the headline tells you all that you need to know.

How far are they willing to go?  Earlier this month, the following case was reported:  in summer 2018, a woman with COPD appeared at the Falun medical center with a severe cough with yellow mucous.  She was sent home with a 4-day course of cortisone tablets.  Six days later, she was urgently hospitalized and died from bilateral pneumoniae and blood poisoning.  

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/regiondalarna/pressreleases/region-dalarna-goer-lex-maria-anmaelan-paa-grund-av-bristande-foeljsamhet-till-rutiner-vid-handlaeggning-av-en-patient-med-kol-2895115  (article posted on July 11, 2019; Google Chrome will translate for you)

 

Emilyn, good news: await my message!

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

I can guess Sarah what that good news may be. You are amazing persistent dedicated committed to your fans and those of David on this site.  

neena

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Neena, it is only a realisation about what is probably happening in this country and other European countries andhow we can maybe partially get round it!

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Dear Dear Sarah

anyway I can help sitting here please let me know. Sonal getting ready for her second pulse early August. Keeping fingers crossed.

Neena

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Hi Everyone,

I think there might be further improvement in my walking. BTW I'm in the middle of my latest pulse - number 5 or 6. It's all written down at home.

As a reminder, I started the Wheldon Protocol in January. My memory and mental abilities improved almost over night; my walking remained bad and in fact, even got worse. 

And then.

Over the last 3 weeks walking started to become a lot better (almost normal, if not going up or down stairs!) between about 930 am and 4pm. Then it would deteriorate and become as bad as always. Nearly.
However , yesterday when I got home at 1730 I managed the stairs really easily, and later, my right hand was working properly too. For the first time! All evening, the limping was not as pronounced.
This morning, it was a lot less bad, and here I am at 8am walking pretty normally. Caveat: walking down stairs earlier was bad, but maybe a little better. I'm not sure.

Amazing. I feel great.

Kiki, I am overdosing on Vit K2 and biotin, as well as all the usual. I take Metronodizole (sp?) for the pulse.

xx, Lizzie

Elizabeth Anne

great news Lizzie

Absolutely wonderful. New you with a new life in Spain! Inspiration for everyone else.

Take care. Dont overdo anything. Dont fall! xx

Neena

 

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Im so happy for you Lizzie!

Im not so fortunate yet. Seem to get worse and weaker myself even with all supplements, loads biotin etc. Tini for pulse here. I feel overloaded and on my knees most days and still wondering whether Im doing the right thing. Going as far as thinking I might have worse than MS actually as no physical improvements at all( rather opposite). Halfway through pulse 6 at mo.

But dont let me rain on your parade Lizzie- Im sincerely very happy for you

Kiki

Hi Kiki,

That's hard. I wonder -- ever since I was diagnosed (1992-ish, but I think I had it before) I've been taking loads of supplements. They had a very good effect on me, and in fact I thought I had knocked it into a 'mild' case of MS. Reality was that I was being slowly worn down, but I believe I was not as bad as I would have been. So I started in a better situation, perhaps. Also, look at the video where Dr Wheldon talks about Sarah's recovery happening 'fairly quickly, within 5 or 6 months'. I keep reminding myself that it's been in there, doing the damage for YEARS. 
Japanese have a fabulous expression: gambatte kudesai, Kiki. Please do your best xx

Elizabeth Anne

Hey Kiki!

I went to bed last night thinking about what you had written.  Lizzie has different genetics... she may have had a lower bacterial load.... she's using Metronidazole instead of Tinidazole (maybe her body is responding to this more effectively?).... she may have a tougher immune system.  It doesn't matter.  We all have to start where we are.  Don't give up.

This is a battle that we all enter with different levels of infection.   

It may take a while to repair every cell in your body that has been infected with Cpn.

None of us are in a competition, but it sometimes feels like that when we post the results of our Pulses.  We are all here for hope, knowledge and support.  I believe we will all attain robust good health permanently---you too!

But only you can decide if you are on the right path with the CAP treatment.  For me,  the progress is slow, often only tiny, subtle indications of improvement.  And it's very hard to observe myself objectively (my logging of many responses to the meds helps me see my progress more objectively). 

I tend to state loudly the positive results I am having from the CAP, I do have periods where I rant to myself that my healing is too slow.... to damn slow after many years of feeling like shit.   BUT,  I am at a much better place than I was on Day 1 of this protocol, and this is sufficient.... I am not going backwards,  I am not in pain.  So, I hold on to this and plod on.

This whole thing is a marathon for many of us.... pace yourself... congratulate yourself on the tiniest, most subtle improvements.  Ask family and friends to see if they notice any improvements (even tiny ones) and tell them to share these with you.  Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees.

 

With much good cheer,

Jan

56 y.o. with possible dual diagnoses that I am working to confirm this year: Ankylosing Spondylitis and Scleroderma, and minor Psoriasis.

I know Jan..

Under most circumstances Ive always been the upbeat, most positive person.Knowing theres reasons for all, lessons to learn and armed with a gungho Im going to do all what others may think of as impossible. Donkeys part of my DNA and heritage/legacy.

I just feel safe on here having a whinge and showing my fears and doubts. Cos maybe someone else feels/felt same and together we can march on with more hope and inspiration.

Big hugs back Jan

Kiki💖☀️

Hi Kiki, sorry to hear that you feel worse/weaker.  One must always consider the possibility that chronic dosing with antibiotics can destroy the sensitive balance of the microbiome in the colon and replace beneficial microbes with pathogens.  This can manifest in the form of mild gastrointestinal distress or more seriously as allergies, inflammatory bowel disease, psychiatric disorders, or autoimmune disorders.  There is emerging evidence in the scientific literature that a dysbiotic colon may be the cause of rheumatoid arthritis in some patients.  It is often hard to discern between a Cpn-derived symptom and that of a dysbiotic/dysfunctional colon.  One way to differentiate is to stop taking antibiotics for a couple weeks and simultaneously load up with prebiotics (probiotics are worthless).  The fermentation of prebiotics produces acidic products that lower the pH of the colon.  Most pathogens require a slightly basic colon (pH 7.0 - 7.5) and will die off in an acidified colon (pH 5.5 - 7.0).  Everyone has different body chemistry/metabolism/distribution/excretion.  This is why clinical trials are so complicated and the reason why the FDA requires a Drug Product Sheet (this is the paper inside the drug package that no one reads and everyone throws in the trash) listing all of the side effects that were observed in those trials.

Hi Scott!

Thanks for your concern and support! Much appreciated. Tho Im a fairly newbie on abx I just dont know what a few more months will do on this journey of mine. Others have different results from each other so keen to hear more stories and results really. 

Kiki💖

You go girl... soon the walking will be strutting:-)

Jan

56 y.o. with possible dual diagnoses that I am working to confirm this year: Ankylosing Spondylitis and Scleroderma, and minor Psoriasis.

Hi Scott,

I did try NAC one night (1000 mg).  I noticed that I perspired a lot that night, but it could have been the glass of wine!

Is excessive sweating a symptom of cpn?

I think I have a severe case of cpn,in the brain which I got about 8 months ago (Oct. 2018).  

I have a lot of issues with depression, balance, eyesight, ear and teeth problems.  Most important, I have brain shrinkage, and some strange symptoms of that. Does anyone share these issues?

Hi Jean,

The NAC reaction varies considerably from one person to another.  My experience was excessive sweating and diffuse abdominal pain within 2 hours of ingestion and lasting for a few hours.  This was definitely a "positive" Cpn response for me (and it repeated about 4 more times).  Did your sweating come on shortly after ingestion (i.e., 1 - 2 hours) or many hours later?  Perhaps you should try again without the wine :)  If the sweating repeats again, then that would strengthen the probability of a "positive" Cpn response.  Be aware there there are some conflicting views about taking NAC without also taking antibiotics simultaneously.  This is based on a single publication that came out in the past year.  I would like to see further studies before I take a position in this controversy.

i don’t post much but am a warrior and spectator none the less. The protocol confines! Am now down 2 pulses... I felt better during the second pulse, I mean while I was taking metro... didn’t feel too good after it, almost as if the body missed the third antibiotic. But I soldiered it on and a few days later felt better. When I say better of course it is a relative term, relative to my permanent condition, which can be bad. But I tend to measure  my good days from the bad ones as the ones where I am strong in the head. When I want to take on the challenge, which means call the plumber because the bathroom sink is leaking!

thats just me, but it gives me endless pleasure when can get off the bed on my own, walk around with a walker, attend a family lunch smiling.. there are already days when my right leg feels lighter.. can sit on a chair for longer periods of time.

so yes , each body is different and the curve can’t be the same!

till later then...

 

Hi Sonal

Super well done fellow warrior! Happy to hear you're keeping at it with great head space! I was going to say same as in Im much better when on pulse meds than afterwards too! What's that all about??

Kiki💖

Hi Kiki, Sarah, Lizzie, Jan and all,

this year is fast fading and I look forward to the new year, which I hope will bring health to all.

Kiki, you are lucky -- as also Lizzie -- to have found this site and started the abx before things got pretty bad with your bodies. Sonal deteriorated sharply since 2015-16 and I feel we found this site and the Wheldon protocol almost in the nick of time -- even if rather late -- . Her disease seems to have progressed rapidly in the lasty two years.

But it seems all will benefit , some sooner than others, because the nature of the disease -- I am talking of MS especially -- is so different for different patients, affecting them so very differently.

Take care

neena

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Dear Everyone,

Well, now 7 months have passed and things are continuing to improve. I know I have a long way to go but I feel I am steadily recovering.
Yesterday I went for the walk with my husband that I have done for many months. Apart from the fact I'm not staggering along beside him, grabbing his arm to keep me from falling, I need to rest much less. There is a bench I always 'rested' on, that I easily walked past. 

Sarah, you and Dr Wheldon have changed EVERYTHING about my future. I am no longer on a slide to the bottom that you can't get off. 
My brain and memory are back (worked out 16% of £150K in my head) , my sore mouth and shoulder are better, my droopy eye droops no more, my previously very thin and horrid hair is thick (I had a bald patch I used to hide), I am far less tired, I can follow complicated plots in detective series once more... 

Sonal, I started noticing little, strange physical improvements from month 2, and it went from there. The things you talk about: "there are already days when my right leg feels lighter.." I had exactly the same feeling about my right leg. I could lift up the toes when I was putting on shoes. 

Best wishes,
Lizzie xx

 

Elizabeth Anne