MediTest
Submitted by markmc2000 on Fri, 2009-01-16 01:59

Hi Folks, I stumbled across the Marshll Protocall for treating bacterial infections tonight and was wondering if anybody else had considered the marshall protocall before going to the CAP treatments supported here at the CPN site. The marshall protocall claims to help CFS and some other diseases similar to the CAP treatments supported at CPN.org  ThanksMark

Mark- There have numerous discussions about this here. Do a search for them. The approach here is very, very different from the MP on a number of fronts. We have a number of people here whose health became much worse on the MP particularly from it's restriction of Vitamin D. Someone may point you to the specific links here, but dig into it here on the site first as it's a tiresome one to discuss again.

And while you are reading, Mark, take your supplements - including Vit D and NAC.  Glad you are here.  Reenie will be along and give you a short, succint, and colorful reason NOT to do the Marshell protocol.

Rica

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

Mark,

Stay away from the MP if you want to preserve whatever health you have at the moment.  The theories of the MP are not backed by sound science or anyone other than Marshall and many of us have relapsed, developed rare cancers (most likely due to prolonged D avoidance) and permanent renal damage, all of which are not mentioned on the site.  

The Marshall Protocol and other fairy tales

Many say it's much like a cult.  I suggest you avoid it.  It's subtle and the changes and worsening will take time but there are many people much worse off than before they started.  You may have heard me mention that I lost nearly 4 yrs of recovery time... well, that's why.  

PS I don't even mention the name of that other site so it doesn't get pulled up during searches.  I would suggest removing that direct link to that site for safety reasons. (THANK YOU!!!)    

NAC 2.4g, Zith 250mg/MWF, mino 200mg, Tini 5day/1g/5 pulses, ValcyteSupplements, CFIDS/FMS, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBS, Sec Addisons Don't believe everything you think!  

I posted on Amy Proal's site and included a link from lymeMD.blogspot.com. She got a little defensive and left me wondering whats up. Then I've read up and understand why.

Ken Lassesen has a good page on the topic:

http://www.lassesen.com/cfids/MarshallProtocolRisks.htm

Look on that page for "A report of an  investigator on Trevor Marshall". The link leads to a eye opening page.

Doxy 100mgx2, Azithromycin 250mg MWF, Probiotics: PB8, JarrowDophilus. CFS since 2003. Last 5+ years lots of the usual research (Depression, Adrenal Fatigue, HPA, Mercury, Candida, Thyroid, etc.). iherb.com $5 coupon code: HAW103

Mark, I tried the Marshall Protocol for 15 months or so and got no better, no worse. I think the antibiotics they recommend are similar to Stratton. On that basis it makes some sense. But the idea of avoiding D does not make sense, except PERHAPS in cases of sarcoidosis. Actually the use of low dose plused antibiotics follows the work of certain rheumatologists who found that rheumatoid arthritis seems to be linked to chronic infection. If you want to read more on that you can go to

http://www.roadbackfoundation.org

But if you just keep reading here you will get the same concept and probably more addressing of side issues such as supplements. I am no expert on cpn, but I have been around the block on pretty much everything else. I have mycoplasma, cpn, HHV6, EBV and Lyme disease. My original diagnosis was chronic fatigue syndrome. If you google my name several articles of medical conferences will turn up, but don't bother.

Paula Carnes

 

Paula Carnes

Thanks for the replys. Kinda dropping the Marshall protocall based on what I have heard so far. I think I'm on the right path with the guidance from the doctor I have chosen. 

 

 The support here really makes a  difference. Good to have a place to communicate others in the same pickle as me! Everybody's illness is so different but great to share ideas.

 

Thanks

Mark

CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

D W

Speaking as a medical microbiologist I'd be very wary of long-term low dose antibiotic monotherapy: even worse is long-term, low dose intermittent monotherapy. The induction of resistance is a real risk. Tetracycline resistance to Chlamydia suis - a distant relative if C. pneumoniae has been induced in swine in a production facility in the US. [Growth and development of tetracycline-resistant Chlamydia suis. Lenart J, Andersen AA, Rockey DD. Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 2001 Aug;45(8):2198-203.]

Two antibiotics acting in the same biochemical chain effectively prevent the emergence of resistance. To use an analogy, consider the high-jump. Many athletes can clear 6 feet. However, none can clear 12 feet. (The world record, held by Janvier Sotomayer, is an astonishing 8.04 feet.)

Unless a nitroimidazole (metronidazole or tinidazole) is added to bacterial protein synthesis inhibitors (BPSIs), therapy will freeze rather than kill the organism: when treatment is withdrawn, the organism reactivates. (BPSIs force the organism into an anaerobic state, where they are susceptible to nitoimidazoles, which caused fatal breaks in the DNA: these breaks cannot be repaired because the 15 or so proteins needed cannot be made because of the presence of the BPSIs. Crafty, eh? So, the BPSIs have two invaluable functions. This revolutionary idea was discovered by Chuck Stratton at Vanderbilt. I'm eternally gateful: without this discovery Sarah would not now be sitting at her drawing-board doing a pen-and-ink drawing of The Resting Hermes of Lyssipos.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Two of them actually, one is the life model in DW's novel, rear view, the other is an interpretation of him as the resting Hermes.  Both are watching each other.  Surreal?

Actually, T Marshall wouldn't like it because the model has a bit of a suntan...............Sarah

An Itinerary in Light and Shadow

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Actually, T Marshall wouldn't like it because the model has a bit of a suntan...............Sarah

And not only can this lady paint and draw but she has wit.  Good one Sarah!  I got a real chuckle out of that!  Image removed. 

NAC 2.4g, Zith 250mg/MWF, mino 200mg, Tini 5day/1g/5 pulses, ValcyteSupplements, CFIDS/FMS, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBS, Sec Addisons Don't believe everything you think!  

Holy Smokes! By being on the MP for almost 4 years I set up a bloody factory for Cpn. Don't go there Mark! I am worse off than before the MP. But thank God & the folks here. Now I know I am making progress although I have a much bigger battle now. It has taken me 4-5 months to successfully tolerate the supplements. Then from Sept. until now to barely tolerate the first two antibiotics on the Wheldon protocol. I don't know when I will be able to do my first pulse. So you see ... you do not want to do the same mistake I made. If only I knew then what I know now. I would probably be well and functioning above a house bound victim of a very nasty parasite. I can't wait for the next 4 years as I am set free!  Image removed.  MM

2002:CFS. (2008-09:CPN - CAP/5 pulses)  3/2010: Restart CAP: 200Doxy/250Zith-MWF/Tini pulses. 6/2010: HighBP/Benicar, 7/2010: EBV, HHV6. 2012: 6,000 IU daily vit. D., Citioline CDP choline = sleep improvement dramatic. 

DW probably isn't here now. But more than likely someone else can answer my question. So many really smart folks in here.

After re-reading DW post above: "unless a nitroimidazole is added to bacterial protein synthesis inhibitors, therapy will freeze rather than kill the organism". Geez... does that mean cryptic forms being made. I am wondering how urgent then is it to do my first pulse? I don't want to keep freezing the suckers until I have so many in the cryptic form it about kills me to do my first pulse. I admit I am scared anyway of that first pulse.

Then the second thing. I want to share ... DW went on to say, "when treatment is withdrawn, the organism reactivates"  Thought I would mention to all of you. That seems to be exactly my experience ... when I stopped taking minocycline Nov 2007 so was totally off antibiotics for the first time since 2004. I started getting sicker and sicker. What I now know as secondary porphyria was horrible for me. I think it was around Jan/Feb 2008 that Reenie suggested I try Emergen-C and it kept me sane until I finally came here around April 2008 & started NAC, etc. Looking back I can say I have improved quite a lot since those dark days for me. I literally could not stand the natural light exposure.

OK then. Can someone please give me some input on my question above? Did you all pace your first pulse to avoid making too many cryptic forms? TIA  MM

2002:CFS. (2008-09:CPN - CAP/5 pulses)  3/2010: Restart CAP: 200Doxy/250Zith-MWF/Tini pulses. 6/2010: HighBP/Benicar, 7/2010: EBV, HHV6. 2012: 6,000 IU daily vit. D., Citioline CDP choline = sleep improvement dramatic. 

MM - I went on doxy and azith on 06 Oct 2005. I did my first flagyl pulse, a full dose for five days straight, starting 25 Nov 2005, seven weeks later. My only adverse effects were a strong need to sleep/rest and fluctuating temperature, as far as I can recall. (I was on vacation from work, so I just slept whenever I felt the need.)

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

You should respect rather than fear the pulse. 

If you have lots of bacteria, the die-off caused by the metronidazole can be unpleasant.  Re-read the Handbook for the steps to take to deal with die-off and follow them.  If you do, your first pulse will be memorable, but not terrifying.  I was cavalier about the charcoal in particular and ended up with shortness of breath bad enough it sent me to the emergency room.  Lesson learned.  I've been very careful to follow the protocol since and haven't had a significant problem.

You can do this. 

CAP for M.S. 8/2007 - 3/2009.  Twentieth pulse metronidazole + INH completed 3/12/2009.  Intermittent treatment thereafter until 11/20/2009.  

OK MacK & hdwhit thanks for sharing & the encouragement. Guess the bottom line must be that I won't know how I will do until the dirty deed is done. But the idea that I am creating more cryptic forms without the nitroimidazole agent... I will be using Tini ... just sent me into a momentary panic. Of course, I'll do what I need to do. I just want to time it right for me so I don't make it worse then it has to be. Just trying to keep things tolerable yet get the job done. Just so ya know, I do faithfully use moppers daily & have read the handbook a few times.

Maybe in DW's post saying "freeze" Cpn  isn't even saying that it becomes "cryptic". That really is something I wanted to find out though. Does anyone know?  TIA  Image removed.  MM

 

2002:CFS. (2008-09:CPN - CAP/5 pulses)  3/2010: Restart CAP: 200Doxy/250Zith-MWF/Tini pulses. 6/2010: HighBP/Benicar, 7/2010: EBV, HHV6. 2012: 6,000 IU daily vit. D., Citioline CDP choline = sleep improvement dramatic. 

Hi MM,

I feel your fear right thru the pc!  Image removed.  

Yes, I do believe David is using the word freeze for what happens when RBs "freeze" from reproduction and convert to cryptic.  That would make sense in our understanding of this bacteria and how when we stop the bacteriostatics without the bactericidal abx, ie, Flagyl or Tindamax.  

You will be FINE.  Trust the process.  You are preparing yourself just fine and you are already killing off bacteria in the cells and also ones that haven't yet been able to reproduce. 

I would suspect that although you aren't doing pulses yet, some cryptics are probably getting killed off with the increase in D due to apoptosis (organized cell death) and even thru the abx you are using because when the RBs die, they take infected cells that probably also contain some cryptic with them.  (someone please correct me if I'm mistaken) 

So now for the pulsing part... 

My first pulse was uneventful.  I did one day of tini, 500 mg BID.  Image removed.

I waited a month and did the second pulse.  It was quite memorable and it nearly scared me into quitting CAP but I hung in there.  I did 2 days, 500 mg BID.  It took 6 weeks until I began to feel well enough (and brave enough) to pulse again but I was able to do the full 5 day pulse and have been able to tolerate a full pulse ever since, once a month.  (and to think I nearly quit!)  

I would say, knowing you, knowing what you've been thru and where you are today, you could prob tolerate at least doing what I did for my first 2 pulses.  If you wanted to dip your feet in slower, just do one pill a day, but if nothing much happens you will get braver and will add more.  

BTW, I'm not pulsing now (skipped Jan pulse) as I'm waiting to see if the Valcyte kicks in and I'm getting a bit concerned by the length between my last and next pulse too. 

NAC 2.4g, Zith 250mg/MWF, mino 200mg, Tini 5day/1g/5 pulses, ValcyteSupplements, CFIDS/FMS, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBS, Sec Addisons Don't believe everything you think!  

DW,

Thanks for the scientific answer. Sounds like you have been on the abx treatment yourself for ahile then quit? May I ask how long you were on the abx then quit? Can anybody give examples of people here that have been on the CAP treament for years then has successfully been off for years without adverse side effects? 

 

thanks,

Mark

CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

Fear grows when you don't understand. Even the bravest people fear but do the job anyway. I am not ashamed of fear. It is only the coward turns away because of fear. I vow I will get the job done. There was never a question that I will. Admitting fear and conquering it makes you stronger. If I express fear it is to get the devil out in the open. No hiding! Image removed. 

Thanks for helping me to understand Reenie. You explain things so well. You really do have a gift for it. OK. Now I will begin planning for my first pulse. Since I just switched to Doxy I think I need to wait a bit though. Couple weeks or so to test it out should do it I am thinking. After all I have only been on the full doses of the first two abx for a couple weeks.

You do have a curious situation with the balance of knowing what the Valcyte is going to do and the pulses. Whether you miss a pulse or not should not be a biggie I would think. Meaning I have read some skip them to allow their liver to recoop. Something I may need to do as mine is contankerous at times. Hope the Valcyte will be good to & for you. 

2002:CFS. (2008-09:CPN - CAP/5 pulses)  3/2010: Restart CAP: 200Doxy/250Zith-MWF/Tini pulses. 6/2010: HighBP/Benicar, 7/2010: EBV, HHV6. 2012: 6,000 IU daily vit. D., Citioline CDP choline = sleep improvement dramatic. 

Mark, David's story is in the patient's stories. He is the first hytensive to drop to normal - remarkable. But of course, remarkable is what we do here every day.
Rica

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

Thanks Rica,

Interesting changes in DW's physical appearance. I read all those stories, of course have forgotten them all too. Lovely memory..... 

 

 

 

CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

I have never read DW's patient story, I never thought all the swelling in my face neck legs and any thing else that can swell was from the CPN

I have never read DW's patient story, I never thought all the swelling in my face neck legs and any thing else that can swell was from the CPN