MediTest
27 Apr 2018
Author
clammed_up
Title

Lyme antibiotics

Body

A few questions please help here if you can?Is CPN succeptible to 3rd generation cephlosporins?It seems to me that it is not, is this correct?Is lyme succeptible to quinolones and if so how effective is it? I seem to recall that is effective against the cystic form is this correct? From what I know, cystic lyme is succeptible to metronidazole corrrect? Finally, a cpn question... have we established if metronidazole kills reticulate bodies or not?Heres my thoughts..

Comments

 There is some suggestive evidence that metronidazole may be killing RB's as well as cryptic Cpn. Certainly it kills cystic borrelia according to Brorson's work. The rest I'm ignorant of.

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFS & FMS. Protocol: 200mg Doxy, 300mg Roxithromycin, Tini 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

RB = Reticulate Bodies...one of three forms that Cpn takes. No relation to Bb.

Tennessee, USA - Bb positive w/neuro involvement, suspected CPn
Doxy/Samento for Bb 2005-2007
Started CAP 4/19/08 - NAC 2400mg, Pyruvate 6g, Doxy 200mg, Zithro 250mg M/W/F

Tennessee, USA - Bb positive w/neuro involvement, suspected CPnDoxy/Samento for Bb 2005-2007Started CAP 4/19/08 - NAC 2400mg, Pyruvate 6g, Doxy 200mg, Zithro 250mg M/W/F, Metro pulses @ 3x500mg

Keebler,  Look at the tabs at the top of the page.  Concentrate first on "Getting Started" and then on "The Cpn Handbook."  For a pleasant break in your "heavier" reading, check out the "Patient Stories."

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, Cpn, Mpn, B. burgdorferi, systemic candidiasis, EBV, CMV & other herpes family viral infections, elevated heavy metals, gluten+casein sensitivity. 

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, Cpn, Mpn, B. burgdorferi, systemic candidiasis, EBV, CMV & other herpes family viral infections, elevated heavy metals, gluten+casein sensitivity. 

I think one of the things that many docs talk about is strain variability with lyme (could that be with Cpn too?). Sometimes what effective for some is not for everyone.

The quinolones have never been considered super effective for lyme but for bartonella, yes. and Yes, flagyl has been shown to be effective against lyme cysts but some of the research shows it takes 2 weeks of constant assault for true cyst busting to begin.

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"Chance favors the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur

Husband treating MS with CAP

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"Chance favors the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur

Husband treating MS with CAP

 Sojourner- I think your comments on different strains of Borrelia responding to different abx combos probably does apply to Cpn, but we only know this anecdotally. We certainly know there are different strains of Cpn, and I am more and more questioning about whether differing treatment responses on the same protocol, eg. David's version, might have something to do with needing a different combo for their particular strain. For example, one strain may do better with doxy/azith, another roxy/doxy, or biaxin/doxy, or as I've been finding, roxy/bactrim. We know the combo's that seem to help the greatest number of folks, but not what the variables are for the folks that aren't being helped. Is it the drug combo? The dosages are too low? What? I appreciate your pointing this out. This is particularly on my mind with Marie and John who have posted recently.

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFS & FMS. Protocol: 200mg Doxy, 300mg Roxithromycin, Tini 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

Clammed, What I seem to hear you asking for is a specific information regarding microbiology and microbe sensitivities to the difference classes of antibiotics.  There is much cross over with sensitivity as I understand it and depending on the catigory of bacteria there are specific exceptions. 

I personally find the subject of microbes factinating (unfortunately we harbor them in our bodies).

Antibiotic use, in the short term application has a long list of different drugs.  When you get to the application of Abx for the long term there in lies the dangers.  Some very effective Abx can be very toxic taking long term.   Much works, many are unsafe for a good number of reasons when taken ong term. In these cases the provider needs to know what those toxic effects are and be vigilant and test for the occurences periodically.

The abx that are outlined on the Stratton/Wheldon CAP have been chosen for a number of reasons, safety of administration, availability, cost effectiveness, and and sensitivity of CPn ( and some other organisms) to these medications.   

We have had members report on their use of Levaquin, Cipro, and others that were less than best.

I personally started with high dose Doxy 400 mg per day which is considered an effective dosage by Lyme tx standards and I was practically disfunctional for over 3 months.   Perhaps it was useful.  I am better now on a variation of this moderate CAP.  I am beginning to have a life, have more energy so am spending less time sitting at the computer.  Previously it was about all that I could manage and I a greatful that it was here for me.

Your question: "If CPN is not succeptible to cephlosporins then a challenge test with cefuroxime axetil or omnicef would theoretically differentiate cpn from lyme in my case... would anyone agree? "

I would disagree.

There are lots of protocols out there and lots of antibiotics.  I don't think you will find your Lyme Abx questions answered here to the depth that you would like.

Louise

CFS/ME.CPnPositive.BbPositive.WheldonCAPbegan6/24/07. NowNAC,Doxy, Roxi, Full TiniPulses. Cholestyramine at BedtimeforPhorphoria&liposacarideEndotoxinDie-OffExperiences.

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Hi everyone, thanks for the replies. I realise that there will never be a definitive answer for me, so I have no option but to patterfoot around endlessly by process of ilimination. I had a LLMD once yes- a well known jackass here who only cares about $. He was extremely abusive to me and I couldnt take anymore. He told me things like " treat you?, what do I need patients like you with no money for, I dont need you" .He refused to acknolege my CPN and got mad and yelled at me for doing the test "behind his back" because in reality he didnt get to charge his additional service fees to it. He refused to put me on IV even though I disclosed to him how many times Ive had treatment failure with multiple abx and that I have nervous system involvement, and lesions and facial/cranial pain and etc etc and anyway we argued and I told him that if he is so sure I have lyme then he should be putting me on IV like all his other patients and he simply refused.  Any lyme test Ive ever had has been negative and so have other tick borne pathogens... but I'd expect nothing less then that since Ive had this infection going on for as many years as I can remember.

I go back an forth between the following

CPN

LYME or rickets or tick borne pathogens

Dental issues caused by anerobes like bacteroides and

/or staph infection of the roots of the teeth

Oral antral fissure/fistula 

The problem with LLMD's is that they are open to diagnosing lyme and tick borne pathogens but tend to ignore everything else such as dental issues, staph and anerobes. Anyway the reality is that there are only a few LLMD's in canada and I have no $ to travel or see one anyway because this disease has stolen my life. Even a trip to new york is not financially possible at this point.

Anyway heres where I still stand in my basket of neverending confusion, Id like to know the following mostly:

Under a microscope... do 3rd generation cephlosporins kill the chlamidia pathogen.

Also... what do LLMD'S charge roughly?

     &nbs

Clammed, I am sorry, I do not have the answer to your question.

Blessings in your search for healing,

Louise

CFS/ME.CPnPositive.BbPositive.WheldonCAPbegan6/24/07. NowNAC,Doxy, Roxi, Full TiniPulses. Cholestyramine at BedtimeforPhorphoria&liposacarideEndotoxinDie-OffExperiences.

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support