Kill viruses 1st?
Hi,
I got the information of the necessity to kill 1st the viruses before starting any antibiotic treatment, until antibioticsi reactivate viruses!
what do u know? is that right? what do you do, to kill viruses? i have several, like EBVi, borna, herpes zoster ...
Thx
Daniel
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Obviously you don't know whether you even need to do this. I can't answer anything about viruses, but ask instead whether you have considered or done the NACi test. For many people, that tells a great deal about where they stand. It is only an amino acid and doesn't do any harm.
All the supplementsi on the list are probably beneficial to everyone. Most prople , for example, are deficiant in many vitaminsi, magnesium, and especially Vit D3.
Rica
3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abxi protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxyi 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyli 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMSi EDSSi 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan In for the duration.
Daniel~
My opinion is test for lots of pathogens and treat for what looks to be most obviously wrong first. It may be necessary to treat both viruses and bacterial pathogens but start one treatment first, give it some time, then start in with further treatment for other pathogens.
This is uncharted territory and no one has all the answers.
This website might be helpful to you, although the lab tests not as much since you live in Germany: http://chronicfatigue.stanford.edu/
Best, Timaca
on valtrex 500 mg tid
http://whispersfromthefather.me/
Daniel,
We were advised by Dr. Garth Nicolson, world authority PhD pathologist, to treat Cpni or Mycoplasma infections with abxi first. He said that when the immunei system gets healthier, it can often put the viruses back into their dormant position w/o help from antivirals. He advised to NOT use antivirals unless absolutely necessary. Their side efects are severe.
We are following his advice. It is too soon into treatment to know the status of Erica's virus infection.. We know for sure that there is a huge die off of bacteria. For now, we will work on that and move on to check the viruses later.
The longer you wait to treat, the more pervasive the infections become. Keep on reading. Try searching Immed.org and Garth Nicolson and whatever else is out there. The more you know, the better the decisions you can make.
In the U.S, the supplementsi required cost more than the antibiotics. I don't know about antiviral costs.
I wish you success in your search.
Betsy, MSi mom
Daniel, Betsy is correct here. Chlamydia pneumoniae can be put in check easily and once the immunei system regains the upper hand, viruses are dealt with as well...................................Sarah
A Journey through Light and ShadowHHV-6 can (and does) exist without an ongoing bacterial infection present. So, treating the bacterial infection (such as Cpni) does not necessarily mean the HHV-6 infection will go into latency. HHV-6 is capable of affecting the immunei system: http://www.hhv-6foundation.org/conditions-associated-with-hhv-6/hhv-6-and-immune-suppression
I personally know several people who were sick with HHV-6 only (or HHV-6 and EBVi). Their immune system could not put the virus back into latency. Antiviral drugs gave them their life back.
Best, Timaca
on valtrex 500 mg tid
http://whispersfromthefather.me/
Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFSi and many problems 30 years
Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFSi and many problems 30 years
Lala, he is very reactivated!......................Sarah
A Journey through Light and ShadowStratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFSi and many problems 30 years
Hi Lala~ It is totally possible for a person to have both chronic bacterial and chronic viral infectionsi. I believe I fall into that category (with more than one virus active unfortunately). It is also true that lab tests may not be the best indicator of what we are battling either because a person may be seronegative yet still have an infection or a person may not be tested for whatever pathogen they are sick with. I still think the best approach is test for lots of pathogens and treat for what looks to be most obviously wrong first and go from there. I've had antibody titers as high as the lab measures to several pathogens and when I've gotten treatment for those pathogens, and the antibody titers have dropped I have felt much better.
One of the persons I know was very sick for 18 years (bed bound at times); and diagnosed with Parkinson's at 2 major medical centers. He had an HHV-6 infection (I believe he was PCRi positive but not 100% sure of that). 8 months of valcyte cured him. If he had Cpni or a bacterial infection too he would still be sick. He is not. He is living a very full and active life. Same for the other people I know. They are leading normal lives after antiviral treatment.
I am not saying treating Cpn is not important. It is. That is why I'm on antibioticsi. I'm simply stating I know people personally who have had only viral infections without a Cpn or other bacterial infection and they have gotten well with antiviral treatment. And to be honest, my health has improved greatly with both HHV-6 treatment and treatment for Coxsackie B. Would I have needed antiviral treatment if the Cpn had been treated first? Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know for I didn't go down that route. I did receive a heck of a lot of antibiotics (including 6 months of IV rocephini) before starting antiviral treatment though, and I was still quite sick. The antiviral treatment helped me...so I am grateful for the quality of life I now have. But, I still want to get better so I press on trying various treatments as you all do.
DW~ Viruses should be latent, not people.
Best, Timaca
on valtrex 500 mg tid
http://whispersfromthefather.me/
David you might be interested to know I have tested positive for the new retrovirus XMRV but I am following the Cpni protocol (apart from stopping the NACi recently due to daily migraines). Its very early days for me and cannot say I have any improvement yet apart from sleeping much better.
I was very interested in what you had written regarding retroviruses and how when one gets rid of the Chlamydia viruses should be dealt with by the IS but would that happen with something like XMRV too?
Timaca: you say of someone with an HHV6 infection and who was very ill:
8 months of valcyte cured him. If he had Cpni or a bacterial infection too he would still be sick. He is not."
If only life were so straightforward! If only! A Cpn infection can simmer covertly and asymptomatically for decades. But during that time it can in some persons quietly damage the immunei system (by parasitizing lymphocytes and monocytes and rendering them less effective). As a result, sleeping parasites may be awoken, HHV6 being one of them.
I think it axiomatic that re-awakening of a very common - almost universal - latent virus in an actively damaging form should prompt a search for primary, immunologically damaging pathogens. Cpn and HIV come across as two likely candidates. (Active ongoing infection with HHV6 is generally universal in persons with end-stage AIDS.)
As Dumas would have said: cherchez la femme!
Bertie: I have no personal experience of XMRV. As you know, it's a very contentious subject.
DW~ It would be nice if CFSi were a straight forward illness. As we know, it is not. (Nor is MSi for that matter.) However, some people with CFS do get well on antivirals alone. Treatment with antibioticsi does not seem to be necessary. Here is the article that talks about the man that was ill for 18 years. I know him personally....he lives in my hometown and is healthy. http://med.stanford.edu/news_releases/2007/january/montoya.html
I do believe that I have both chronic bacterial and chronic viral infectionsi. And I believe, for various reasons, that my illness started with a reactivation of a bacterial pathogen first. I then think (as you state) that my immunei system was compromised and the viruses reactivated. So my situation is different than my friend's. (And for that reason I take both antivirals and antibiotics....and both have helped me.)
Best, Timaca
on valtrex 500 mg tid
http://whispersfromthefather.me/
Timaca, whether someone with chronic fatigue gets well on anti-virals alone is really beside the point in Daniel’s case, since he has MS and seems to have just had a relapse, if I am understanding another post correctly. I think he should start straight away on antibioticsi especially since there is no guaranteed cure of a viral infection. I might have messed around for ages, believing that my MS was caused by EBVi or something else viral, then in the end it would have been too late................Sarah
A Journey through Light and Shadow
The thread's question is: "kill the viruses first?"
The answer in the case of a person with MSi is categorically: "Target Chlamydia pneumoniae first." That is categorical. There are many good, worldwide, confirmatory studies which have detected Chl pneumoniae in the CSF of persons with with MS by culture or specific gene detection.
This page may help: http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/peer-review.html
Perhaps I could quote from my own webpage:
The evidence for a causal association of C. pneumoniae with majority subsets of MS has been garnered by a surprisingly diverse array of methods; cultural, molecular (both DNA and RNA based), immunohistological, serological (blood and CSF based), animal model, ultrastructural and therapeutic trial. It is this very diversity of methodology which makes the evidence compelling. The subject has recently been reviewed in some detail by Chuck Strattoni and myself [Stratton CW, Wheldon DB. Multiple sclerosis: an infectious syndrome involving Chlamydophila pneumoniae. Trends Microbiol. 2006 Nov;14(11):474-9.]
David I realise your expertise is with MSi and note what you state here and wonder do you have the same opinion regarding ME/CFSi because there is a lot of evidence for various viruses not really being dealt with by the immunei system? Indeed I have several herpes type viruses raised in my blood.
Yes, I do realise the XMRV retrovirus isn't yet proved but my understanding is that there hasn't been a real replication study. Also my immune system produced antibodies to XMRV so I don't understand how that could be contamination. Of course the Blood Working Group under Dr Lipkin are studying this and should hopefully publish by the end of the year to sort this out. I am glad that at least I am doing something to sort out any underlying infection.
Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it.
yesterday i was at a specialist (neurologist, pharmacolist) in munich 8he is even professor). he examined me and told me i dont have borreliosis, because all my boodlevels are negative. also he wasnt interested in any symptoms, which may be more special for borreliosis than for MS as nightsweating or much flatulence ... my MS is a MS. i couldnt tell him more until no time was left ... many symptoms as mentioned above still point at something infectious ...
he caused to do a LTT for CPNi and others (not borrelia). after that i should take minocyclin and cotrim, something for my bowel and TNF. what i also had no time to ask was about the heayvymetals in me (i have much) and -sorry for repetition- the viruses (i also have many like HHV6, EBVi, VZV). dont they have to be out of the body first and then start antibiotics? i m not sure, if i should start abxi or not?
as i read above, all of u r also not that sure, what to do ... one says "irst viruses", another "abxi first may also be ok".
do u have any recommendations as for now?
thanks
daniel
Daniel, out of everyone on this site, the person you need to listen to is my husband, Dr David Wheldoni, who cured my progressive MS. His advice is to start the antibiotic treatment first because the right antibioticsi will take care of the bacterial infection whereas antivirals should keep a virus quiescent but they won’t banish the virus completely: http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/hhv6.html
You might be better writing to him and his address can be found at the bottom of this page: http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/ms-treatment1.html
Please listen to me! ......................................Sarah
A Journey through Light and Shadow
hi sarah, thanks so much for ur answer. i ll print n read your links and contact dw within the next days concerning my lines above ... good night daniel
MSi for more than 30 years, WP since July 08, break Jan 09-March 09. NACi 2x600mg, Doxyi 2x100mg, Roxi 2x150mg, Entizol in pulzes, LDNi, supplementsi