MediTest
Submitted by kerem aytan on Thu, 2009-06-18 18:45

  Since I was a strong supporter of VİTD3 supplementation, I feel responsible to post that report which is very supportive for Marshall protocol. I'ıı try to discuss this issue with Dr. Stratton to decide whether I should go on taking high dose VitD3 supplemantation.  DR. CHENEY: Balance the Immune System (Th1/Th2) Print E-mail Articles - Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Articles      That's MP, you can easily see the similarities. ''In people infected with cell-wall-deficient bacteria, the production of 1,25-D can spiral out of control and rapidly reach damaging levels.  This happens because, as an evolved survival mechanism, cell-wall-deficient bacteria are capable of catalyzing the process by which Vitamin D is converted to 1,25-D.  Instead of a slow, controlled conversion which occurs only in the kidneys, 1,25-D production becomes uncontrolled, occurring throughout the body inside cells infected with cell-wall-deficient bacteria. Specifically, immune system cells harboring cell-wall-deficient bacteria can turn into tiny, unrestrained factories producing excessive amounts of 1,25-D. Bacteria catalyze the 1,25-D conversion process intentionally to cause immune system suppression and create a more favorable living environment in the body.   The result of catalyzed 1,25-D production is a subclinical yet devastating immunosuppression syndrome that allows Lyme Disease (and other types of cell-wall-deficient) bacteria to persist chronically in the body.  When present in appropriately controlled quantities, 1,25-D is a critical nutrient and is important to health, as we have said.  However, when present in excessive quantities, 1,25-D is immunosuppressive and inhibits the immune system from fighting infections. This process is one of the core survival mechanisms of Borrelia Burgdorferi.  The excessive levels of 1,25-D often present in people harboring chronic infections leads to a greatly inhibited host defense system. By accelerating conversion of Vitamin D to 1,25-D, these tiny bacteria are basically able to neutralize the human immune system. ''

That's the problem with the printed word, it is at risk to multiple interpertations.   Everyone understands what they think they mean to say but how it is heard is up for grabs.  

I would think that newbies would be concerning themselves with the information available through the tabs at the top of each page.  The real how to of the process.  There have always been theoretical discussions, some that have been way above my head yet I would not try to flag them or control them, IMHO, particularly in a user's blog space.

Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

My first post was clear enough and only one person seems to have misinterpreted the intent. I stand by it. And, as we all have a tendency to critique and comment (else there would be no need at all for a 'reply' button), I shall continue to do so, despite the attempts to control what > I < choose to post.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

 Mac, I can understand you and not serious about that feeling, ıf I would serious I would stop making blog.

 I don't think that newbies would deal with this kind of theoretical discussions, they will look at the pages like home, getting started, CPN handbook, patient stories, etc... which make much sense on them. Evenif I'm a doctor, I also did so and started to follow blogs only after reading and understanding all those important pages.

 Don't worry; newbies will follow the true way.

 yılmaz.

KEREM'S TAKECARER;Suspıcıon of MS (transient nystagmus during conjugated gaze on february 2008, blepharospazms and some optic complaints on february 2009-no plaque on MRI), Vit D3 started 400 IU and elevated to 2000 ıu ın 40 days.

  Mac, you may be right about the term of ''as we all know'', and if you know a way to wipe it off please do that, it would be better. But I don't believe that this term would make so much sense on newbies.

  yılmaz.

KEREM'S TAKECARER;Suspıcıon of MS (transient nystagmus during conjugated gaze on february 2008, blepharospazms and some optic complaints on february 2009-no plaque on MRI), Vit D3 started 400 IU and elevated to 2000 ıu ın 40 days.

Yilmaz, how long have you been back on VitD3 and in what dosage? And how are you feeling?  Are you noticing any die-off in relationship to your restart.

I get my most recent 25-OH D level soon, likely on Thursday in the mail.  I will also see what my B12 level is and my current CMP and Genetic testing for Gluten Enteropathy should be in my mail box tomorrow.

I would be interested if you might blog on your current response to your changes in treatment and results of the tests that you were considering having done.    I am wondering if you had any response to the Borrelia B. testing results.  I will write an update blog after my doctor's visit next week.  My intention is to restart Abx at that time. 

So far I am doing OK, perhaps the high dose vit D and the Iodoral are helpful in holding me steady during these past 6 months of CAP abx. 

But I know that it could be only a matter of time before a relapse could occur.      Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

One way vitamin D might be helpful in fighting Cpn, that has to do with the NF-kappa B pathway, is suggested in this page of Red's:

http://www.cpnhelp.org/vitamin_d3_chlamydia_pneu

Cpn inhibits apoptosis in cells it infects, presumably so that it can finish growing inside the cell before it transforms into EBs and kills the cell to release the EBs. The second paper referenced on that page says that it uses the NF-kappa B pathway in order to do this inhibiting of apoptosis. In particular, it increases the amount of NF-kappa B. Other papers referenced on that page say that Vitamin D decreases NF-kappa B. Putting the two together, it can be guessed that vitamin D might induce apoptosis in Cpn-infected cells, and thus help in fighting a Cpn infection. But that is just conjecture; one would have to test it out experimentally to be sure.

(These things are more complicated than the usual language implies. NF-kappa B isn't even just a single well-defined chemical, but rather a family of five or so similar molecules. Most probably those different variants of NF-kappa B will eventually be found to have subtly different functions, and to behave in different ways. To really string together a couple of papers like that, and get any reliable conclusions, takes a lot of attention not only to which precise chemicals are involved but also to the concentration that is reported as having activity, the place and time at which that concentration is achieved, and other such details. That's why I used so many weasel-words above: this is just a hint that vitamin D could be helpful by this mechanism, nowhere near proof.)

  Lousi, I'm on 2500 i.u VİTD3 for just 2 days. I will make a blog about my test results and treatment changes after taking my second borrelia results. The first result was not clear enough and I try to check it in Turkey.

  Norman, I totally agree with you on that;

 ''To really string together a couple of papers like that, and get any reliable conclusions, takes a lot of attention not only to which precise chemicals are involved but also to the concentration that is reported as having activity, the place and time at which that concentration is achieved, and other such details.''

  But ıf we can manage to do that truely ıt would help us to understand the diseases proceses and treatment models deeply.

  I will try to do that again.

  That's the page,as you noted,  posted by Red which contains the articles showing how CPN prevents apoptosis; and how VİTD3 might be helpfull against CPN.

 http://www.cpnhelp.org/vitamin_d3_chlamydia_pneu

  And that's the page posted by Nellyp which shows how CPN hides inside the apoptotic neutrophils and silently infects macrophages to find itself longliving hosts.(That was the article made me worried about those infected macrophages, then I decided to target these macrophages  directly and started Rifampin)

 Chlamydia pneumoniae Hides inside Apoptotic Neutrophils to Silently Infect and Propagate in Macrophages

  Putting these together I can not be sure that whether apoptosis helps infected people or CPN.

 But that's all very theoretical and should be test out experimentally to be sure.

  yılmaz.

KEREM'S TAKECARER;Suspıcıon of MS (transient nystagmus during conjugated gaze on february 2008, blepharospazms and some optic complaints on february 2009-no plaque on MRI), Vit D3 started 400 IU and elevated to 2000 ıu ın 40 days.

If you're worried about infected macrophages, rifampin might not be enough; there is a paper finding that in monocytes, rifampin had no effect on chlamydial growth. The Vanderbilt patent suggests INH or niacin as being good for clearing Cpn from monocytes and macrophages.

As for Cpn hiding inside apoptotic neutrophils, the germ definitely inhibits aptoposis; and it wouldn't do that unless it got some survival benefit from it. Anything that hurts it helps us, as a general rule. There can be exceptions to that, and perhaps apoptosis of neutrophils is one such exception; but that's not necessarily the case: it might still help if those neutrophils committed apoptosis earlier rather than later, and thus left fewer RBs for macrophages to eat.

  Thank you Norman, I discussed this with Dr. Straton and that was his answer;

  ''I agree that going after the infected macrophages make the most sense. I believe that rifampins are the best, particularly 150 mg of rifabutin per day. Take care.''

  I couldn't find rifambutin in Turkey, and started rifampin.

Dr. Stratton attached those articles also.

 Ct-Rifabu...pdf (228,2 KB), Rifampin ...pdf (198,5 KB)

 yılmaz

KEREM'S TAKECARER;Suspıcıon of MS (transient nystagmus during conjugated gaze on february 2008, blepharospazms and some optic complaints on february 2009-no plaque on MRI), Vit D3 started 400 IU and elevated to 2000 ıu ın 40 days.

  ''What do you make uric acid from? You make it from RNA and DNA metabolism and that is produced endogenously [within the body] and exogenously [outside the body]. Endogenous production is by apoptosis [normal, programmed cell death.] ''

  That's from Dr. Pall's book and may explaine one of the mechanisms that how VİTD helps MS patients who doesn't take antibiotics. As it's indicated in the book, uric acid is a powerfull scavenger of peroxynitrite which cause oxidative damage in this kind of diseases. VitD, may increase urıc acid levels, by increasing apoptosis of infected cells.

  yılmaz.

KEREM'S TAKECARER;Suspıcıon of MS (transient nystagmus during conjugated gaze on february 2008, blepharospazms and some optic complaints on february 2009-no plaque on MRI), Vit D3 started 400 IU and elevated to 2000 ıu ın 40 days.