Cpnhelp.org

 There's a mistake related to link, if you want to see article(which is very interesting), you should copy that and paste it on the google.

   DR. CHENEY: Balance the Immunei System (Th1/Th2)

  YILMAZ

I have been thinking a bit about this issue as well. Why does the MP site keep saying no to Vit D, while everyone else says yes. Perhaps both sides are right and -wrong-. According to Marshall it matters in which state the VDR (vitamin D receptor) is. If 25D is low and 1,25D is very high, this is according to the MP theories a clear case of dysfunctional VDR. Then if you supplement with vit D3, things wont improve from there, and no die-off. If your VDR is however still functional, supplementing with vit D3 probably won't worsen anything, but instead cause some die-off.

Marshall has also said that Benicar (which supposedly should activate the VDR) is a critical part of his protocol, and that for some, abx alone are NOT sufficient for recovery. Personally, I think he got this one right, even if some other parts of his theories possibly didn't go quite right.

Kerem, I am unable to get to the article. The portion you quoted - was that Dr. Cheney? I am stunned IF it is. It doesn't sound like something he wrote. Can you please give us a better link or else copy the entire article and post it here?

 Thanks so much.

Paula

 Paula, I tried but couldn't post a working link, so I'ıı just try to send a mail for you.

   YILMAZ

  OK, I THİNK THİS WİLL BE A WORKİNG LİNK.

http://www.ei-resource.org/articles/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-articles/dr.-cheney:-balance-the-immune-system-(th1%10th2)-/    YILMAZ

Oh for goodness sake, Yilmaz!  The silly season doesn't start until the beginning of August.  Cheney was very unwise to allow his work to be published online without checking it: This issue's articles are based on tapes of Carol's October 2000 visit. Dr. Cheney gave permission to share this information, but has not reviewed or edited it.

As for Trevor Marshall and his computer models, I'm not a bunch of software but a real person and I have done very well on CAP antibiotics and large amounts of D3...............Sarah  

An Itinerary in Light and Shadow

Yilmaz, that's not Cheyney who said that, it is Bryan Rosner in his book Top 10 lyme disease treatments

The Cheyney article you linked to is about Th1/Th2 dominance, and doesn't mention vitamin D or cell-wall-deficient bacteria. 

Chapter 2 of Rosner's book is called "The Marshall Protocol" and Rosner is simply restating Marshall's ideas.

Good sleuthing Garcia.  I thought it sounded a lot like TM..

Yilmaz, also remember the following study seems to indicate that cathelicidins do  have at least some level of activity against at least Borrelia burgdorferi:

Borrelia burgdorferi are susceptible to killing by a variety of human polymorphonuclear leukocyte components

  Sarah, Garcia and Red, I don't know much about Dr. Cheney, Dr. Bryan Bosner, and Trevor Marshall. So when I see your expressions I understand that Dr. Cheney is a respectfull scientifist but D. Bryan Bosner and Marshall not. If this is the fact please let me know. I also don't know how Dr. Marshall works, does he makes real researchs or what?

When I read that report what I understood was just that.

   Th1 response is so important to fight against intracellüler pathogens like borrelia, cpn, viruses etc.  Also many of these intracellüler pathogens have a capability of turning off Th1 while turning on Th2(which will not help against intracellüler pathogens) by secreting some immune mediators which work as misdirecting signals for immüne system. We know that VitD3 also turns off Th1 and turns on Th2 by increasing secretion of similar immüne mediators. This seems to me almost the same as what Trevor Marshall says; He says that some intracellüler pathogens turns off Th1 to multiply freely and do this by using VitD3.
   If we assume that MS is an autoimmüne disease, then Vitd3 maybe helpfull by directing immüne system toward Th2, so preventing tissue damage caused by cellüler immünity.
   If we assume that MS is an intracellüler infection the things may change. I believe that it may still help in certain doses if we are on a powerfull antibiotic protocol, by preventing exessive collateral damage. But if we are not on a sufficiently powerfull antibiotic protocol it may help pathogen to invade body.(My son, forexample, is taking only vit d3,  I stopped giving it recently and waiting for Dr. Stratton's commend.
   When we talk about Vit D3 we should consider it's other effects on defensins, cathelidicines, matrix metalloproteinases, etc. also.
   I increased my VitD3 intake in a very fast manner and I don't feel well. I don't know whether it's due to die-off or spreading infection. At the and I'm not an expert of VitD3 or infectious disease, so I decide to be cautious untill Dr. Stratton will give me enough confidence.

  YILMAZ.

Marshall has a Ph.D in engineering, not an MD. He got into this stuff because of his own disease (sarcoidosis), not out of scientific interest. He has concocted an elaborate demonology of vitamin D, which mainstream vitamin D researchers strongly disagree with. Marshall's demonology is partly based on scientific research (in a warped way), and partly based on his own molecular modeling experiments. Molecular modeling is highly error-prone, even in the best of hands -- and since he's not a specialist, his are not the best of hands (even if one were to ignore his strong bias). My impression is that there are enough knobs to turn on the modeling software that if he exercises his bias sufficiently, he could get basically any results he pleases. In any case, he has not written up the details of his modeling for any scientific journal, or even posted the details on his website.

Sarcoidosis is one of the few diseases in which giving vitamin D is known to cause harm. But the harm isn't from suppressing the immune system: it's from 1,25-D being created by the immune system in high enough levels that the leakage into the blood messes up calcium levels, sometimes lethally. Marshall used to have a "Skeptics' Corner" (or some similar name) area on his website forums, but then deleted it and banned all the skeptics, after they started winning arguments with him. One of the skeptics' repeated questions was for him to justify this business about vitamin D turning off the immune system's ability to deal with pathogens -- which he was unable to do. Then someone finally found a paper about vitamin D and TB, showing influence of 1,25-D on macrophages infected by TB. Unfortunately for Marshall, the influence was in the other direction from what he was claiming: the vitamin D caused the macrophages to suppress and kill the TB germs. (The paper was either this one or this one; they both report similar results.)

Mark London has written up a detailed rebuttal of Marshall's biochemical theories, which can be found here.

"Marshall used to have a "Skeptics' Corner" (or some similar name) area on his website forums, but then deleted it and banned all the skeptics, after they started winning arguments with him."

Heh. But can anyone explain to me why some people fail to react to any antibacterial stuff at all, like abx, while they still have some disease? I saw today someone who said he had taken massive amounts of iodine (over 100 mg) and only experienced some changes in mood. It was a Crohn's disease case. Also massive amounts of vitD3 seems to alleviate the symptoms rather than causing die-off for some.

If it is not the VDR (vitamin D receptor) that is the culprit here, then what is it? When we talk about chlamydia, then the most important thing that should be considered is the cellular self-destructing mechanisms, as the immune system can't see most of the chlamydias anyways. One important pathway is controlled by the NF-kappa B transcription factor, which has got something to do with the caspase family of enzymes which are central to most apoptotic processes. Now, NF-kappa B is upregulated in many inflammatory disease. A particularly powerful NF-kappa B inhibitor is alpha lipoic acid, which Burt Berkson uses along with LDN to treat autoimmune diseases and cancer. But most antioxidants do inhibit NF-kappa B to some degree, but not as well as lipoic acid. Some research on ALA and NF-kappa B:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18182252

http://www.e-emm.org/search_read.htm?page=106&year=2007&vol=39

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1482376?ordinalpos=66&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

The NF-kappa B has got something to do with angiotensin II as well, and Benicar, because angiotensin II Receptor Blockers Inhibit also NF-kappa B. This is the alternative explanation they offer on the MP site for the usefulness of Benicar. In this case we don't need the VDR and vitamin D hypothesis to explain the usefulness of Benicar, and vitamin D becomes possibly a secondary issue in this whole theory.

Why should we believe Mark London? He's not a medical doctor either. Isn't he just a guy on the Internet who makes it his practice to rebut everyone's theories/treatments for CFS/FM based on his personal experience? 

I can do that.

In fact, London says, "I am not a doctor.  But, given the resources of the internet, it is now possible for anyone to do their own research and find out the real facts for themselves."   

Based on my research and the experience of myself, family members and friends, I would have to say that supplementing with D3 is a hazard to ones health. I, and a number of others I know, had profound ill effects from mega dosing with D3 after a couple of years.

Yilmaz, keep doing your research.

Cherry 

"Based on my research and the experience of myself, family members and friends, I would have to say that supplementing with D3 is a hazard to ones health. I, and a number of others I know, had profound ill effects from mega dosing with D3 after a couple of years."

Heh, dont worry, this is probably just die-off , and you shouldn't use too large doses at least initially, but ramp it up slowly. Make sure you also mop up the porphyrins with some supplements, or else you may get stuck with them for a very long time.

I would recommend you to write down your own research, Cherry, as Mark London did, so we can compare both. I have not read about his family members, but I read lots of scientific links.

Mark London includes links to the studies that back up his statements; believing him is not a matter of worship, but of checking and cross-checking. And no, he's not "just a guy ... who makes it his practice to rebut everyone's theories/treatments for CFS/FM based on his personal experience". For one thing, he doesn't make much use of his personal experience; most of his comments are based on the scientific literature. For another, he doesn't rebut everyone's theories; he hasn't had anything to say against this website. And lastly, he has positive comments as well as negative ones, as witness his page on magnesium. So, Cherry, you're batting zero for three, in that characterization of him.

Since I started supplementing D my mood has improved and the bone-deep "unexplainable" aches I would get in my legs and feet have gone away. These pains were so severe sometimes I'd just curl up on the couch with some Advil. I would not choose to go back to being D deficient.

"Whatever the precise cause, cases have been noted here where people have experienced great improvement on antibiotics without "herxing" significantly."
But what about porphyria then, because if you have a Cpn infection you should also get porphyria problems, which are unrelated to the immune system reactions to bacterial fragments and endotoxins. The heme synthesis is highest in bone marrow/liver, but all cell types do at least some heme synthesis.

I don't think that there any chronic infections around which wouldn't involve Cpn at least to some degree. For example on the MP site, you see that they have sometimes mycoplasma co-infections (and of course viral co-infections are common), like in sarcoidosis, which produce granulomas, but these granulomas and enlargements of lymph nodes resolve generally early on, on the treatment (perhaps first 6-12 months), while most of the remaining time seems to be spent on clearing up the rest of the Cpn, or some other invisible infection that isn't obvious by any clear symptoms like granulomas that mycoplasma may produce.

I don't know what would be of porphyria. It's possible that those people (I'm not one of them) didn't recognize the porphyria and put a name to it. In some cases, they may have been taking enough countermeasures, such as activated charcoal, to reduce it to a level where it was unrecognizable. I've found it to be quite difficult to recognize mild porphyria; it only becomes really apparent when it is severe. I can tell for sure when I don't have any porphyria: it sort of feels like everything is right with the world. (Nothing about the actual state of the world is implied here; I know intellectually that not everything is right with it. I'm just talking about feelings.) So my best way of detecting porphyria is to ask myself whether I'm feeling that way; if I'm not, I'm probably at least a bit porphyric. But that way of detecting porphyria is the product of a lot of thought, not something that comes naturally. Most people won't be imitating it -- nor do I suggest they try to; my description isn't detailed enough to be a recipe that anyone can follow, nor would I know how to make it into a recipe. I mention it only to say how hard the symptoms can be to recognize, and put a name to. And when there's no name for something, it often doesn't get mentioned at all.

  I was away for a few days, just trying to send my and kerem's blood samples to IGENEX and FRY lab. properly. It was really very hard but I hope I managed it. Thanks for all your commends, I will read all of them tomorrow and post my own thoughts, but I'm so tired now and should go to bed as soon as possible.

  YILMAZ.

Check this on iHerb: 5000 iu vitamin D. Cheap!

I take 2 a day.

Raven

I'm taking this one now.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Vitamin-D-3-Highest-Potency-5-000-IU-120-Softgels/10421?at=0

I haven't had my D tested since I've been on it but the reviews seemed good so hopefully its effective. I was just not getting my D up on 3,000-4,000/day so it was time to bump it up. It sure is nice to get it all in one pill! We take enough pills already. Sometimes I just can't stand to swallow one more.

Sunnivara, I will  be interested to see how much 5,000IU raises your level.  It took going to 10,000IU/day to get me to the upper 70's and that took 6 months!   I am still on 10,000IU/day will test again maybe in July and repeat in October to try and factor in an possible sun exposure and then again return to my usual amount of non-summer sun exposure.  My practitioner is fine with 100being my target level and so am I.  I also want to prevent bone issues. 

  Hıı folks, thanks for everybody for posting their thoughts.

  Fırst off all I should note that scientific data indicating benefits of VİTD3 are much prominent than the opposite but I still continiue to be suspicious untill Dr. Stratton will explain his toughts about VİTD3 on intracellüler infections, as he promised.

  I should also note that many article which seem to be scientific and published on respectfull journals may not be so scientific. Because I saw it very often that the number of included patients are increased greatly (ıf 20 patient in real, they report it as 200 forexample), and the datas are modified to get a statistically significant result. They do this to increase the chance of their research to be published. Otherwise to make a carrier is really very difficult thing. I know things are better in developed countries but I remember very famous doctors(one in USA forexample) who were learned to made his all researches at home by just imagination.

  I understand that nobody here believe Dr. Marshall. I'm aware of Marshall protocol for a while and didn't worry about it. So lets forget Dr. Marshall, and just look at Dr. Cheneys report. He obviously says that some intracellüler bacterias misdirect immüne system towards Th2 sothat they can proliferate freely. That is important. Th1 is very important to fight against intracellüler pathogens. (Dr. Stratton stated to me that also). So if there were a way to sum all effects of VitD3(TH1/Th2 ratio+defensins+cathelidisins+ etc..) we could easily see what would be the net result on intracellüler infections but we cant do that. But there are some signals for it's benefit at least in TBC infections.

   Pgm, you say that; ıf you feel worse on Vit D3, its all die-off, do you have any evidence for it, do you know strong evidence showing die-off effects of VitD3 infact.

   Norman, you know many about almost everything, so I will ask you about some other things as private message.

   MacKintosh, you may do well on Vit D3, it's good, and I advice you to go on taking high doses of it. But your condition doesn't fit everybody. Remember there are people doing well on MP also. First of all, I don't know whether you have any intracellüler infection, like CPN, borrelia,viruses, etc. Ifnot thats very normal that you get benefit from D3 supplementation because it decreases immüne damage. Lets say that you are CPN infected; then it's possible that CPN in your body may be a very sensitive strain and when antibiotics killing it vitd3 may helping again by decreasing collateral immüne damage. But there are many people here who are infected by CPN, borrelia, babesia, bartonella, EBV, HHV6 etc. What happens to them if you turns off Th1, antibiotics doesn't help people  who are infected by viruses, what will happen to them when you supplement with high doses of Vitd3, even what happens to a people who is infected by a resistant strain of CPN?

  So this is not an easily answerable question.

   I also wonder JIM K's thoughts in this issue. As far as I know he is in close contact with Dr. Stratton and he doesnt get huge doses of vit D3. (previously 1000 ıu, 2000 ıu now) These doses are only for daily need and I don't think would elevate blood levels.

  YILMAZ.

 My purpose on asking my question here is ; 1)I want to learn other peoples thoughts and experiences and discuss this issue with them to get the truth. 2)I feel responsible because I was a strong supporter of Vit D3 before.

Besides I don't dismiss current vit D3 studies, but I need more confidence. Medicine is not mathmatic and things may chance in time, remember that they were advecing everybody to runaway from sun just a few years ago.

I also don't think that it would be a good strategy to deplete vit d3 stores of the body, ıt looks unnaturel.

  YILMAZ.

"Pgm, you say that; if you feel worse on Vit D3, its all die-off, do you have any evidence for it, do you know strong evidence showing die-off effects of VitD3 infact."

Read Red's papers on vit-D on this site.

http://www.cpnhelp.org/vitamin_d3_chlamydia_pneu

I got interested again in this NF-kappa B stuff (been looking at it last year already), and vitamin D affects it too. A typical effect of stuff that inhibits NF-kappa B seems to be that you either get die-off or then symptom palliation. I don't know why this can happen in two different directions, more research is needed. But anyways, the NF-kappa B pathway is the one that is heavily involved in intracellular infections, because many intracellular bacteria activate NF-kappa B, in order to stop the cell to self-destruct. It also affects TNF-alpha, which is a major inflammatory cytokine, so downregulating it results in less inflammation. I think a good NF-kappa B inhibiting substance should be a part of the Cpn protocol, as then you may even be able to decrease the amount of abx used, when you attack the intracellular bacteria from different directions. This highlights the important problem that abx alone might not be enough to do the job, but you need to attack the bacteria with direct NF-kappa B inhibition also, in addition to protein synthesis inhibition. Personally i believe most in frequent dosing of alpha lipoic acid to do this, rather than using vit D. This topic is quite complicated, as there are many ways to downregulate NF-kappa B, all methods don't work in the same way. But I suppose NF-kappa B inhibition is the real reason, why they want to use frequent dosing of Benicar on the MP. I see no use for VDR as the primary mechanism in this issue, although it could be involved in the process too.

  Pgm, thank you for remembering me those good articles, I know about them and always thought that Vitd3 helps in CPN infection by this way, till now. But after learning huge importance of Th1 response against intracellüler  infections and after learning how intracellüler microorganisms try to supress Th1 for their own survival(by dr. Cheney's report) I became suspicious about the final effect of VitD3 on intracellüler infections. Those articles even doesn't give us direct evidence of apoptotic effect of VitD3 on infected cells, only indirect evidence.

  When we talk about ALA and it's apoptotic effects we shouldn't it's other effects also, such as conversion of intracellüler EB's to RB's, chelating heavy methals(and causing redistribution of it if not used properly), increasing intracellüler glutathione levels which is just what CPN wants.

  But I am surely agree with you on the importance of NF-kappa B inhibition, we should find the best way for this

   YILMAZ

Hi Yilmaz,

Sorry to hear you're feeling poorly.   Vit D3 does pack a powerful punch though, and the resulting die-off and secondary porphyria as we have warned can be quite large.

As for Vit D3's effects on intracellular pathogens, well for one, as the following article points out, it has been "known for 20 years that exposure of human monocytes and macrophages to 1,25D3 results in antimicrobial activity against intracellular M. tuberculosis":

• Cutting Edge: Vitamin D-Mediated Human Antimicrobial Activity against Mycobacterium tuberculosis Is Dependent on the Induction of Cathelicidin

Also, Vit D3 has been shown to induce "the phagocyte oxidative burst and intracellular killing of Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium" as the following article points out:

• Salmonella enterica Serovar Typhimurium Periplasmic Superoxide Dismutases SodCI and SodCII Are Required for Protection against the Phagocyte Oxidative Burst

So to make broad-based statements like the ones in the articles you mention above, are IMHO, kind of odd at the least...

Hang in there...

  Red, thanks for your commends, I need them now and will need in the future also. Don't think that I'm against VitD3, just the opposite, I still believe it and hope to start supplemantation later.

  Recently, I checked my and my sons 25(OH)D3 titers, suprisingly they were higher what I thought; mine was 62ng/ml, kerem' was 63 ng/ml. (I was thinking they would be much lower, something about 20-30, because I protected me and kerem from sun for years, since I believd the man saying sun is too harmfull) Anyway I think tehy are good enough at least for now.

  I gave a break to CAP and D3 for 20 days, then I send my blood samples for lyme and co-infections for shipping, and I started doxy+roxy yesterday.

  My biggest problem is my diagnosis, I have no diagnosis yet, neurologist said that it should be peripheric neuropathy but they were not sure of that, they gave me guarantee for it's not ALS (Because there was some muscle wasting on my left hand) but now I see that there is a prominent muscle wasting on my left forearm and I don't know whether they can explain this situation with peripheric neuropathy.Anyway after getting my lyme and co-infection results I will go and get a new EMG and MRI to see what it is.

  One interesting is related to my CPN titers, cpnIgG was 177 at the beginning of CAP, and after 1 year of CAP treatment it was reported as 1/1280 (by a different lab). I was hopping it would decrease to some degree and I was really suprised.

  I wonder your commends about it.

  YILMAZ.

Hi Yilmaz,

No worries.   I understand.   And your 25(OH)D levels are quite good...

As for why your Cpn titers may have raised, if the lab results are consistent, it's also my understanding that your Cpn titers will often go up as you start killing the Cpn and exposing them to your immune system...

Yilmaz, if you or anyone else needs to be convinced of the power of vitamin D, my advice would be to start taking it in high doses along with methylation supps (in particular the active forms of folate). My understanding (& experience) is that vitamin D needs methylation to be active against intracellular infections. Without methylation supps I can pretty much take as much vitamin D as I want and get no die-off. However if I take even a tiny dose of methylation supps (1/10 of a tablet) I get severe inflammation. The level of inflammation is dictated by my current D levels.

"When we talk about ALA and it's apoptotic effects we shouldn't it's other effects also, such as conversion of intracellüler EB'si to RB's, chelating heavy methals(and causing redistribution of it if not used properly), increasing intracellüler glutathione levels which is just what CPN wants."

Regarding the redistribution of mercury with ALA that is sometimes claimed has no scientific basis. Ask anyone for any kind of research regarding this topic and you'll find none. ALA is not even an approved mercury chelator, while DMSA is. There is nearly no research done about that ALA would chelate mercury, perhaps some odd mice experiments. But many other supplements like carnosine, and herbs like cilantro have been claimed to chelate mercury also.

What I find is that in the mercury chelation groups, they try to explain the porphyria symptoms by mercury, and the redistribution/backfire is the liberated porphyrins. They then use DMSA to mop this up, believing that the porphyrins were the mercury that ALA liberated. They nearly never measure any mercury they actually excrete, and still claim it has to be mercury.

Here's an example with detailed lab results that demonstrates the issue pretty well: an autistic child using DMSA didn't even excrete mercury with DMSA, but instead lots of porphyrins:
http://www.brainchildnutritionals.com/PDF/naturalchelation.pdf

> Here's an example with detailed lab results that demonstrates the issue pretty well: an autistic child using DMSA didn't even excrete mercury with DMSA, but instead lots of porphyrins:

In 5 out of 6 of those tests with DMSA mercury *is* excreted.

  Red, I hope so too. We can create many optimistic or pessimistic scenarios to explaine my condition all of which may fit.

  Forexample, a pessimistic scenario may be just like that. Rapidly increased D3 levels supressed Th1 response (cellüler immünity which is effective against CPN) while increasing Th2 response (humoral immünity which is ineffective against CPN). If we add to this, a resistant strain of CPN in my body we get a result of spreading infection along with ineffectively increasing humoral immunity.

  An optimistic one may be like that; I'm almost sure of that, I have a tick-borne infection (because I remember a circular red rash which was very similar to eritema migrans). Tıck-borne infection means not only borrelia burgderfori but also babesia,bartonella,ehrlichia etc. Bartonella is a very interesting bacteria depressing immün system very deeply so that body even can not produce antibodies. Since I'm on doxy+roxy for a year, my bartonella infection must have been eradicated at least to some degree so that body freely produce antibodies and that's why my CPN antibodies are so high now. (I'm not sure this is a optimistic scenario, because ın this scenario I also have many other terrible microorganisms, so all the scenarios seem to be awfull.)

  Garcia, I'm on methylation for a week (methylcobalamin+folinic asid+pyridoxal-5-phosphate+glutathione+phosphotidyl serine) and I'm not desirous to add D3 to this list, because D3 made me feel dreadfull even without methylation.

  pgm; there is evidence that mercury intoxication may also disturb heme metabolism and cause porphiria. That artivle was posted by Raven before.

http://www.usautism.org/PDF_files_newsletters/boyd_haley_biomarkers2.pdf

  YILMAZ

One thing about DMSA is that it is an effective anti-Cpn agent. Stratton, in his patents, singles out DMSA as being "particularly effective" against Cpn EBs. So giving DMSA to someone, and seeing improvement, doesn't mean that the improvement was due to chelating heavy metals; it may have been due to killing Cpn.

"In 5 out of 6 of those tests with DMSA mercury *is* excreted."
Sure, but what does that prove? DMSA is an FDA-approved drug, so it *should* chelate mercury if there is anything around. Many healthy individuals with amalgam fillings excrete a lot of mercury, even without DMSA, but with DMSA even more so than you'd ever imagine. These people are still asymptomatic of course, because its not the mercury in itself that causes the diseases.

No trials have been made to measure how much mercury you get out with only antibiotics though; I would assume that any stored mercury would leak out from those places where there has been a local infection, which has accumulated all kinds of trash, that isn't easily chelated out. Only after having compared this with ALA and DMSA treatment, we could go on and argue what's really causing what.

I've also lost an important piece of research, and this was a paper about dimethylmercury poisoning, and Karen Wetterhahn. She had approx 6 mg/L mercury in bloodstream, and was asymptomatic for many months. This is 80 times above the "toxic threshold". I don't know if this toxic threshold makes any sense, because mercury has been found to have effects on immune system in much less amounts than that. In the end she got the classic mercury symptoms like slurring speech etc, and died in coma 6 months later from exposure time. The white matter in her brains had disappeared, it looked like something had eaten the brains partially. So was it the mercury, or was it the bacteria and viruses that woke up and "ate" away the brains, because of totally suppressed immunity? This is a good question, and if it was only the mercury in this case, then why didn't it take effect immediately or rapidly anyway?

"pgm; there is evidence that mercury intoxication may also disturb hemei metabolism and cause porphiria. That artivle was posted by Raven before."
Yeah I looked at it - but we don't know what part and how much is caused by intracellular bacteria in the porphyrin profile.

Anyways the ALA/DMSA is a good protocol; a doctor called Jay Nielsen said he has treated 200 patients with it and he has seen complete elimination of diseases like MS and Lupus.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/message/31319?threaded=1&var=1&l=1

So its up to you to decide if you think that there are variants of MS that is caused by mercury, then you have some other variants of MS that is caused by Cpn. Then perhaps there are variants of MS that is caused by caffeine and too much chocolate intake like some claim - and all with nearly identical symptoms.

Garcia, The methylation supplement that I also added and added first which was extremely helpful for my energy level is Sam-e (S-Adenosyl-Methionine tossylate disulfate), I did not see it on your list.  

I order it from www.wholehealth.com , their brand offering ViriLife Naturals is enteric coated and foil sealed and it is suggested to help with mood& emotional well-being, relief of joint stiffness & discomfort, the enhancement of liver function, suggested dosage is 1 to 3 tablets per day and the information provided on the website is quite detailed.  They even provide a B-complex tablet supplement, one for every one tablet of Sam-e that they sell.  That in itself is a bargain.   And there is a discount for multiples of the same item.

They also distribute Calcium Pyruvate, D-Ribose, and a number of other specialty neutraceutical supplements that support metabolism and energy levels.  They are well priced and efficient in their shipping with free shipping for a minimum order.  I believe that they ship internationally.  

I have been most satisfied with their products and service.  JK suggested this distributor to me and I am most grateful for that suggestion.       Louise

 pgm, it looks to be heavy methals and CPN helps eachother and act together to make us so ill. You know both can supress immüne system (we don't know what part and how much of it was caused by CPN or mercury as in the case of porphiria), they also can form biofilms together to resist treatment. So while giving such a big war ıt looks reasonable to fight against both. pgm, do you know how they use DMSA/ALA together for chelation?

 Norman, So using DMSA for heavy methal chelation seems to be best since you hit 2 birds with only one stone.

 Garcia, you say that 30 min. of sauna for 2 times daily is effective against heavy methal intoxication, do you have any evidence or article about that, did you used sauna alone or together with ALA?

  YILMAZ.

I don't think mercury plays a big role in chronic disease; I think that if it did, mainstream medicine would have figured it out by now. Poisoning is pretty simple stuff, compared to infection. Mercury can't hide from a mass spectrometer. It can't reproduce; it all has to come from somewhere. Cpn, in contrast, is made of the same basic building blocks as we are; and it's quite easy, even with modern PCR tests, to miss it. Knock it down one day, and it may grow back the next. And while mercury is one of ninety-some elements, Cpn is one of millions of species of bacteria; it has a larger search space to hide in.

  Norman, does that mean you will not try to chelate your heavy methals.?

  YILMAZ.

Yilmaz, I have had several series of tests for heavy metals, one in 2007, and one with a nutritional analysis in May, they are not an issue for me.  Not everyone with CPn or Borrelia has a problem with heavy metals.

Have you had yourself analyzed for heavy metals recently?

Also note, BryanRosner is not a doctor just a writer as I understand it.

I continue on VitD3 10,000IU/day, will check the level again sometime this summer again.    Louise

If I had levels of heavy metals worth chelating, I certainly would do so. But I don't see any reason to suspect that I have high levels, so I'm not even planning to have them measured. About my only source of mercury would be amalgam fillings, and I don't have a lot of those.

"This isn't "selective inhibitor of NF-kappa B" territory; it's more like "we hit the biochemistry over the head with an axe, and one of the things we got was inhibition of NF-kappa B". There have to be lots of other things going on at levels that high. In the Berkson LDNi conference video, Berkson mentions alpha lipoic acid levels of 100 mg/kg as being lethal -- he's killed monkeys with them -- and says that even when delivering it by IV, he never goes above 15 mg/kg. (In humans, a kilogram occupies about a liter, so those numbers are directly comparable to the mg/liter number above.)"

You don't want to have total NF-kappa B inhibition - as many intracellular bacteria use this mechanism to inhibit cell death. If you did it, many or most of the infected cells would disintegrate, and all at once, and you would not survive this. I think something in this direction is what happened with Bert Burkson and his monkeys. They were infected (because we are all to some degree), and his IV cocktail caused a massive apoptosis. He didn't realize what happened, and postulated that ALA is toxic in larger amounts. I really doubt healthy cells would start to disintegrate if you inhibit NF-kappa B, only the infected cells will disintegrate, but the healthy cells will remain intact - this was mentioned even in a paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/95/8/4646.abstract
"However, when R. rickettsii-induced activation of NF-kB was inhibited, apoptosis of infected but not uninfected endothelial cells rapidly ensued."

"pgm, do you know how they use DMSA/ALA together for chelation?"

Well ALA is taken every 3 hours, DMSA too, with doses ranging from 10-50 mg of each per every 3 hours. This is done for a couple of days, including at night, and then a break. Repeat as many times as necessary. A suitable starting dose is 12,5 mg of both, and up it as tolerated. Note that DMSA also chelates porphyrins, which is also mentioned in the Vanderbilt patent, so I would say here is the explanation for why people find it so useful. It also chelates mercury of course and lead too.

"About my only source of mercury would be amalgam fillings, and I don't have a lot of those."

Ahh, don't be so sure. Not all are naturally good at detoxing mercury, because of genetic issues, so even small amounts of mercury will be harmful, if it can build up in bloodstream. I have probably shown this paper many times, but here goes one time more:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1868882

In this experiment live cells are used, so it makes it more credible and they are exposed to mercuric chloride, and cytokine profiles are measured.