27 Apr 2018

A Statement from MS Australia: an expected knee-jerk


The Catalyst programme recently broadcast in Australia has provoked a knee-jerk reaction by MS Australia. http://www.mssociety.org.au/documents/news/Catalyst-statement-120824.pdf This 'statement' purports to be authoritative. It is anonymous. It leaves no access for comment or reply. It is unreferenced.



NormanThe cytokine system apparently has a language: perhaps it has many languages: perhaps it's a mess of different languages, evolutionarily drawn.I don't know. Maybe it's not in the power of our language to describe. What is language? An array of idiolects?I wish I were wiser than I am.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

If the immune system is a language, it's a language that does things, and is made up of working parts -- more like a computer language than a human language.  And in terms of computer languages, perhaps the closest one would be C++:http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/defective.htmlWith the immune system, though, unlike with C++, there is a good reason for its complexity.  If it were simple for us to understand, it would be simple for microbes to subvert.  As it is, microbes do subvert parts of it.  Staph aureus, for instance, subverts two or three mechanisms of the immune system, but it still gets caught by other parts, which is why staph aureus is usually not lethal.  One has to think of the immune system not as the sort of thing one might design in a central planning agency but as a bunch of overlapping ad-hoc measures, with lots of backup measures in case something goes wrong, plus backups to the backups, and backups to the backups to the backups.

I felt had to chime in on a thead here that mentions a programming language :) I totally agree with your comparison of the immune system to C++, however I would argue that they are both overly complex for precisely the same reason: they both evolved from an earlier system (earlier hominid, C) that had arisen in a different environment and been adapted to a different set of constraints.

Somewhat related, here's an interesting article on how populations with a history of city dwelling tend to have more genes for disease resistance. 

Personally, I have thought a lot about why my immune system has allowed Cpn to romp so freely for a couple of decades. Especially since it appeared to be functioning incredibly well, almost too well. I literally had not gotten a single cold or flu for about 3 years prior to discovering that I had Cpn. So how was it that the gatekeeper could be so effective and also so blind at the same time?

Based on what I've read and experienced, it makes sense to think that the immune system can become imbalanced so that it only attends to one type of invader to the exclusion of another. There are probably many ways for someone to arrive at an imbalanced state and self-interested intracellular organisms like Cpn may actually help to maintain the imbalance.

Th1/Th2 balance: the hypothesis, its limitations, and implications for health and disease 

I've personally noticed a dramatic intensification of my die off reactions and acceleration of my recovery progression by starting to take supplements (Beta Glucan, IP6 & Inositol, Zinc) that appear to shift the immune system balance towards Th1 responses and boost NK (natural killer) cell activity.

Oral beta-glucan adjuvant therapy converts nonprotective Th2 response to protective Th1 cell-mediated immune response in mammary tumor-bearing mice 

Effects of zinc deficiency on Th1 and Th2 cytokine shifts 

--Positive Lyme test via IGeneX Western Blot, Cpn probable but unconfirmed by ELISA testing, Babesia also likely.Buhner and Cowden herbal protocols, NAC, Artemisinin, Xylitol, Lactoferrin, other supps, essential oils, sauna

The idea you are discussing here (immunity and imunosuppresants) is the one which helped me to resist all the pressure to start some of the CRABs for those 30 years, in fact maybe 20 as at the beginning of my MS there were no drugs available for it in my country. It seemed to me very unlogical to suppess my imunity as I guessed my immunity was busy too much to fight something unknown and bad in my body. I didn't want to make my immunity busy fighting with something that was put in my body. 

MS for more than 30 years, WP since July 08, break Jan 09-March 09. NAC 2x600mg, Doxy 2x100mg, Roxi 2x150mg, Entizol in pulzes, LDN, supplements.Since May 2013 without abx.


I’ve just looked at the UK MS Society website. The situation on the thread on antibiotics and MS is quite extraordinary. Not only is there unwarranted anger, but there is untruth (a claim is made that antimicrobial treatment of MS has not been published in the peer-reviewed literature. It of course has.) The theory behind treatment is said to be ‘half-baked’ and ‘homespun’. Well, the idea originated in Vanderbilt University, which is not renowned for baking or spinning, as far as I know, but is famed for the quality and originality of its microbiology publications. But the worst thing has been the descent into venomous personal attack. I would not have thought it possible. It resembles a locked ward of a mental facility. (As a student I got lodging for free in such a hospital in return for stitching up injuries at night - very common - but had to leave after three months, even though I needed the money: I feared for my sanity.)I suppose the reason for this antipathy is fear: most people with MS eventually realize that no conventional treatment is anywhere near satisfactory. But you'd think they'd be pleased when someone showed them a possible way out of the cage.Here is the thread: there are three pages.  http://www.mssociety.org.uk/forum/everyday-living/english-and-australian-mavericksThank goodness for cpnhelp. I’ll never visit that site again.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Well, I’m not going to go there again: I got removed a few years ago so thought they would do the same this time.  However, although I was left to be pilloried, all is not bad because I have gathered together a few people so horrified by some people’s rudeness that they are not going to post there again.  So I gave them  our address.  Then there is one woman recently moved to Spain whose Spanish GP is going to treat her and finally, maybe several new patients for David or willing British GPs.  Som it was probably worth the attempt, but now the thread can be just left to moulder.......................SarahA Journey through Light and Shadow

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

I would agree.  While I've met two nice people, who I'm happily pm'ing back and forth, posting publicly there is an adventure into a mean-spirited, somewhat angry space.Cpnhelp is an oasis;  lots of info, not too much ego. 

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

By Internet standards, the discussion in that thread is pretty mild.  The statement I see there about peer review is that the antibiotic protocol has not been published in any peer reviewed papers, which seems to be pretty much true, although one could argue with it: there was the paper on azithromycin plus rifampin treatment from Vanderbilt, and the letter to the editor mentioning nitroimidazoles, but no paper laying out the whole protocol with doses and all, let alone proving that it worked in a placebo-controlled study, which is what the die-hard skeptics are really after.  (Or perhaps I should call them die-easy skeptics, given the likely consequences of their skepticism in this case.)


I take what you say, Norman, though in the Infection letter we mention the antibiotic combination: doxycycline plus azithromycin or roxithromycin and later addition of metronidazole. And there are the minocycline studies and the Vanderbilt work. But if they want it served up like a Christmas Dinner they won't get it.Die easy sceptics? Probably not. Die hard but young sceptics, possibly.Are most Internet discussion forums vitriolic? If so I've lived an absurdly sheltered life.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]