MediTest
27 Apr 2018
Author
Arttile
Title

Can remedies that treat ms as an inflammatory auto-immune response be reconciled with the cpn theory?

Body

Help a poor artist to understand this please:The August 18 issue of "Science News" reports on the success of a DNA vaccine  "to quell the self-destructive immune reaction that many scientists believe cause the disease" by inducing "immune tolerance of myelin basic protein." Indeed, the vaccine worked "to decrease the immune T-cells that react to myelin."Now, what struck me about this study is that, as I read it, success was determined not by a decrease in lesions but in the lack of increase in lesions.

Comments

This is a reply by another artist, whose brain is not wired up as logically as some other people on this  site.   I've been thinking about your question since I first read it this morning and it has raised more questions in my mind...

I have not read the article, but what you say implies that the vaccine stops T cells from attacking the myelin sheeths... so would result in no further damage of the sheeths.

The theory here, as far as I understand it is that Cpn forms the lesions on the myelin sheeths and that the immune system is just doing its normal clean up job that incurs collateral damage to the sheeths.

So from my limited understanding of the situation the answer to your question is there are two different theories being presented here and that although stopping the immune system from clearing up Cpn lesions might stop further damage to the myelin sheeth it won't stop the cpn infection.  It might stop Cpn lesions causing CNS damage but may not stop Cpn affecting the blood supply to the brain and nerves.

Michele (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP1st May 2006 . Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, Flagyl at 400mg for 7 days prior to 5 day pulses at 1200mg three weeks cycle. Spokesperson for Ella, RRMS Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

Michèle (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, metro pulse.

Arttile, you can get the answer from two expert horse's mouths, which I will send you by email.  (Sorry, I thought I already had!)...........Sarah

An Itinerary in Light and Shadow   Stratton/Wheldon regime since August 2003, for aggressive secondary progressive MS.  Intermittent therapy after one year. 2007 still take this two weeks every three months. Still slowly improving with no exacerbation since starting. EDSS was 7, now 2

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

 I think I'm the other end of the horse, but in my memory one of the big arguments against the "autoimmune" theory of MS (see David Wheldon's website for the references and explanation on this) is that the autoimmune response has been shown to be secondary to inflammation, not a primary response. This means that the autoimmune response may cause the demyelination, but that a primary inflammation (which we believe to be Cpn or possibly some other infectious agent) is what stimulates the autoimmune response.

The inhibition of the autoimmune response would stop, or lessen, the autoimmune demyelnation but would not stop the infection. I don't know what the impact of continued Cpn infection would be, but clearly brain infection with Cpn causes other things than MS: Alzheimer's, microvascular strokes, perhaps Parkinson's and others. The immune system reactions (inflammation) would not be stopped, only the particular reaction of de-myelination. It also stands to reason that with continued inflammation and infection (Cpn immortalized cells for example) you would not get any recovery of function as we have seen with a number of people on the CAP.

CAP for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFS & FMS- Currently: 300mg INH, 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, 1000mg Tini daily (Taking a break from continuous protocol)

 I have hashimotos thyroiditis, which is auto-immune in nature.  I have no other auto-immune disorders and do not have a family history. I have wondered if the CPN did not settle in my thyroid and then by body started attacking my thyroid.  soi, i think my auto-immune is secondary response. and not the primary cause of my thyroiditis.  of course, this is theory only. 

Memphis, TN. adrenal fatigue and CFS. 6/26/07- CPN Titer 1:256 (normal 1:16); 6/27/07-started NAC; 7/2/07-started doxycycline 100 mg twice daily; 7/19/07 started Biaxin 250mg per day.

Mphs, TN. CFS, hypoT (Hashi), adrenal fatigue, hormonal inbalance. right arm neuropathy-getting better. cpn, myco, EBV, CMV, HHV-6. Cap began in 6/07. NAC 2400mg, mino 100mg bid, biaxin 500mg bid. cytomel, flagyl bid continuously.

One doesn't have to believe that Cpn is the cause to think that the immune reaction to myelin is a secondary feature of MS. One only has to believe the Prineas and Barnett paper, which studied the newly forming lesion (in some rare patients who died during its formation) and found that what died first were the oligodendrocytes which maintain the myelin, and that only afterwards did an immune reaction to myelin itself set in -- which, it seems, was just cleaning up unmaintained myelin.

By the way, searching for that link, I found that they have a followup paper, which should also be interesting.

In any case, a news article about that DNA vaccine was linked here before, although the article you refer to is a much better one. The results don't seem to be very impressive: they haven't shown that the vaccine improves outcomes in patients, just that it doesn't harm them and does reduce antibodies to myelin basic protein.

Also, hasn't it been shown that there's no definite correlation between number of lesions and deficits which occur?   So, theoretically, having few lesions but continued infection could still result in serious deficits and debility, but very pretty,  'clean' MRIs.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.  Mohandas Gandhi

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Norman,

Have you seen or come across anything since posting this that would change your belief that oligodendrocytes death comes before any immune reaction to “clean up” in maintained myelin?

Thanks, Tom

 

 

Dear Sarah/DW

Have you seen some recent reports linking biotin to wrong reading of lab tests related to some heart issues?

Sonal has been taking about 300mg daily of pure biotin for about three months now. Should she continue? Any ideas on this?

Neena

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Neena,since biotin is a water-based supplement, if Sonal has a blood test coming up, all she needs to do is stop supplementing with biotin for two or three days to allow it to be washed out of her system.  Then, as soon as she has been tested she can restart.

Sarah

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

thanks Sarah for the clarification on biotin. And secondly since the tests on Biotin for MS were for about six months, I think but maybe wrong, how long should patients be taking this 300 mg dosage? At the moment no testing due for Sonal but in a month or so may get her to check her liver kidney funct ion as well as complete blood count. I suppose stopping biotin a week before the testing should be sufficient time to wash it off. Thanks again.

Neena

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Hello,

Sarah, you mentioned the other day that you had had VK for blood thickening. When I read your comment I said I was going to reduce my 4 tablets a day by 50%. In fact, as of today I'm going to cut it out completely. This last weekend, and right now, in fact, I think I've been feeling effects:  a tightness in my chest and a fluttering in my throat. I checked this with Dr Google and it's not dangerous, but a bit worrying. I suppose that if the blood is thicker, the heart has to work harder.My blood pressure and cholesterol are normal. Not too much caffeine (I'm going through the checklist).

Bye for now,

Lizzie

 

 

Elizabeth Anne

Lizzie, I am very glad that you have decided to stop taking vitamin K. I have a bottle of it but ordinarily don't take it. I have always had blood which doesn't clot easily, as I found out when I was ten: so I keep some in stock for emergencies.            

Maybe I am one of the people with MS who also have lower levels of vit K, as discovered in the Austrian study:

http://vitamink2.org/k2-potential-therapy-multiple-sclerosis-patients/

However, the difference between my free-flowing blood and David's frighteningly sticky blood before he treated himself, make me disinclined to worry about possible low levels of that vitamin!

Sarah

 

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Hi Sarah,

I totally agree with that. Much, much better to be safe with blood. I hadn't realised until I saw your comment. I think I have been a little disinclined to automatically accept daily dosage amounts as too conservative, after having read about Vit D. Silly me, though. When Dr Patrick Kingsley told me years ago not to take too much evening primrose oil, I was careful. 

By the way - a mini breakthough: I work in a room in an old stately house here in Northampton. It has gracious, wide and shallow steps on the staircase. I can walk down the without holding the bannister - ta da! At home, which is an old factory with concrete steps, I hold on for dear life...

Bye bye!

Lizzie

Elizabeth Anne

Stairs, and our ability to manage them, is a great indicator, because stairs don't just require combined abilities, but also confidence . It's apparent when both start to return. Happy for you, Lizzie!

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Lizzie

wonderful to be able to walk down steps, even if shallow. After all for each step that you take you have to necessarily balance on one foot while the other is put down on the next step -- that too with pressure on the knees.! wonderful. Even if you cannot run a marathon, the fact that you become more and more functional in everyday life is great news.

Are you still in UK and the excitement about a general election or have moved to Spain? Love

Neena

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Hi Neena,

We went to Spain for a long weekend last week, and it was really good. However, it reminded me there is still a long way to go before walking is right. Honestly, the airport in Malaga is vast. I was limping really badly by the time we got to the departure gate on the way back. I must have been walking and queueing for nearly an hour.

Still, the holiday was good. It will be excellent when we have sold our house in Northampton and can move. 

Adios, amigos!

Lizzie xx

Elizabeth Anne

Already speaking Spanish! That's good. You are possibly one of those who learn languages very fast. I am the very opposite. Shy of speaking even when i do know the language a little.

Well well as long as you are better than before. One hour walking around the airport can get to be too much for anyone. I have been limping around for 30 years because of arthritics knees! But ok as long as I could do my work and the household chores. Cannot run a marathon though!

Take care

Neena

 

I am 76 years old. My daughter-in-law was diagnosed with MS and we are all very keen for her to start this new antibiotic treatment. We hope to be able to do this in the next couple of weeks by finding a doctor willing to deal with any issues like reactions that may crop up. My daughter-in-law is 43 years old.

I have been an active poilitical journalist most of my life and have felt for a long time that there must be a cure out there for MS which the medical community has largely ignored. I am very excited by the Wheldon protocol.

Hi Neena, my Spanish is a bit rudimentary. Very rudimentary! I can order food, ask directions and understand the answer, and almost read a newspaper. It's quite like French. When it comes to speech comprehension though, there's a long way to go. I have no idea what's being said on the radio!

Cheers,

Lizzie

Elizabeth Anne