MediTest
27 Apr 2018
Author
Daisy
Title

50 Trillion - Could Take Awhile

Body

For those trying to workout why CAP treatment may need to be lengthy (years), I wanted to share the following ideas.  Don't know if they will help but I wanted to offer them up anyway.  Here they are: Very recently, I was explaining to some MD friends of mine (Gastro, FP and IM) about CAP therapy for CPN, Lyme and other cell wall deficient/stealth pathogens.  The one major sticking point in our discussion was the need for greater than 60 days of CAP treatment to eradicate suspected pathogens and the need to use somewhat lower than traditional antibiotic doses to increase tolerability and th

Comments

Daisy, I think I would have to challenge even the lack of Herx as a standard, as well, even though that sounds like the mental exercise and lively discussion I crave. I haven't had any herx reactions to abx that I know of, beyond my first few days of NAC. My one standing physical/mental response to flagyl pulses is impatience. So, when I am calm on flagyl, reciting 'om' in a rhythmic pattern, am I done with abx? Image removed. (Just for the record, I think I'll do at least another six months to a year of abx, despite having never herxed.)

 My criteria is more along the lines of your other train of thought; I'll know when I think all recoverable deficits have been addressed.  Gee, I'd like to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation!  Sounds great!

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.  Mohandas Gandhi

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Mac - Good point. 

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAP 5/10/07. Doxy 200 mg, Mino 100 BID 9/1/07, AZI 250mg MWF, NAC 600 to 1200 mg, Flagyl Pulses, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplements.

Daisy - Husband on CAP 5/07.  Husband died from Acute Myelogenous Leukemia Secondary to the Infusion of Novantrone.  Ie - the treatment with the conventional MS drugs killed him. Daisy on her own CAP 11/2012. 

very impressive discussion Daisy,

your spouse is in good hands!

Blessings

Ruth

CFIDS/ME 25yrs, FMS, IBS, EBV, Cpn, (insomnia - melatonin, GABA, tarazadone, temazepam, novocyclopine, allergy formula, 2 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NAC 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 250 mg M/W/Fday, 8-21-07 1st pulse 1 X 250 mg Metro

CFIDS/ME, FMS, MCS, IBS, EBV, CMV, Cpn, H1, chronic insomnia, Chronic Lyme, HME, Babesia, Natural HRT-menopause, NAC 2.4 gm,Full CAP 6-2-07, all supplements+Iodorol, Inositol-depression, ultra Chitosan, L lysine Pulse#27 04-19-10 1gm Flagyl/day-5 days<

But you've left me with this awful picture of trillions of snarky little bacteria sticking their tongues out at me!

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.  Mohandas Gandhi

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Ah but Mac - they stuck their tongues out at you and you were proactive and took out a grenade launcher and took that little snarky look right off their ugly microscopic mugs. 

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAP 5/10/07. Doxy 200 mg, Mino 100 BID 9/1/07, AZI 250mg MWF, NAC 600 to 1200 mg, Flagyl Pulses, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplements.

Daisy - Husband on CAP 5/07.  Husband died from Acute Myelogenous Leukemia Secondary to the Infusion of Novantrone.  Ie - the treatment with the conventional MS drugs killed him. Daisy on her own CAP 11/2012. 

Daisy,  Keep planting those seeds...you never can tell which ones will sprout and grow.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, antivirals, heavy metals chelation, LDN, Metanx, Lunesta, GF/CF diet, Lauricidin, oral IgG/lactoferrin/IGF-1 booster, astaxanthin, gamma oryzanol.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, Cpn, Mpn, B. burgdorferi, systemic candidiasis, EBV, CMV & other herpes family viral infections, elevated heavy metals, gluten+casein sensitivity. 

A recent paper contains the statement:

In our AD [Alzheimer's Disease] brain-tissue samples, we routinely found about 20% of neurons to be infected with the organism [Cpn].

The samples were all from "end-stage" patients, which I suppose means people who died of the disease. The quote is from the paper Chlamydophila (Chlamydia) pneumoniae in the Alzheimer's brain, by Herve C. Gerard, Ute Dreses-Werringloer, Kristin S. Wildt, Srilekha Deka, Cynthia Oszust, Brian J. Balin, William H. Frey II, Elizabeth Z. Bordayo, Judith A. Whittum-Hudson & Alan P. Hudson.

I don't know how one could hope to possibly recover from such an overwhelming infection, unless perhaps the Cpn could be killed without killing the cells it infects.

Norman - Very interesting.  Thanks for posting!  It makes one wonder about the possibility of septic shock in treating an end stage AD patient with high concentrations and of particularily IV antibiotics.

Since aluminum has also been found in amounts greater than controls in AD patients, one might wonder if AD's are poor detoxers of metals and other toxins along with co-infected with bacteria. 

More and more my research and examination leads me to believe that any of these diseases are multifactorial and generally a combination of two or likely more toxins. Be they bacterial, viral, environmental, fungal, protozoan, etc...

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAP 5/10/07. Doxy 200 mg, Mino 100 BID 9/1/07, AZI 250mg MWF, NAC 600 to 1200 mg, Flagyl Pulses, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplements.

Daisy - Husband on CAP 5/07.  Husband died from Acute Myelogenous Leukemia Secondary to the Infusion of Novantrone.  Ie - the treatment with the conventional MS drugs killed him. Daisy on her own CAP 11/2012. 

Even a couple of trillion cells is going to take a while.   Thanks Daisy for putting into words, what I have been feling and experiencing during my treatment.   The feeling of waves of disease that comes and go month after month, the experience of my hair growing and then falling out again, the shift in the pattern of baldness that appears on my scalp all demonstrate that this is not a once and for all treatment, but that it waxes and wayne, that some areas seem calm whilst others are being addressed aggressively, that other aspects of my health affects the way the treatment is progressing.  

It is as well to be reminded that antibotics are not the magic bullet most of us used to think of them as, and that they are just an extra helping hand to a supremely well designed immune system.  This brings me to mention the danger of thinking that MS is an auto-immune disorder when in fact I think that it is doing the job it was designed to do, it's just that Neuro are not looking for the trigger that causes the immune system to nibble away at the myelin and brain matter.

Michele (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP1st May 2006 . Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, Flagyl at 400mg for 7 days prior to 5 day pulses at 1200mg three weeks cycle. Spokesperson for Ella, RRMS Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

Michèle (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, metro pulse.

David and I both took lack of reactions to a pulse as being the time when you have cleared the majority of Cpn, which is why he finished full-time treatment at eight months and me at a year.  We continued intermittent protocol until earlier this year, just to be on the safe side.    

"It's a misnomer that taking an antibiotic kills 100% of a pathogen.  Antibiotics are primarily just designed to give your own immune system a hand / fighting chance - even the bacteriocidals. 

Add to this equation the patient's overall health, age, co-morbidities,  immune system status, lifestyle choices of the patient and it really starts to come together that lengthy therapy may truly be needed."

We were both generally pretty healthy, so it wasn't long before our immune systems kicked in.  I know I still have some MS deficits, but they aren't due to a pathogen, so I might carry on taking CAP nearly for ever and still have some.  Now that I have got over the new fear of being cast adrift, I feel better not taking abx and I have no MS symptoms returning and no new ones happening.  My immune system must be working well.......Sarah

An Itinerary in Light and Shadow   Finished Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still slowly improving with no exacerbation since starting. EDSS was 7, now 2, hopefully will soon be less.

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Would there be a danger, once on intermittent treatment, of creating the resistance we're warned about at the beginning of CAP? If the treatment had worked down the bulk of bacteria to the point where the immune system could take over and CAP could be stopped, then suppose there was a re-infection and along with the remaining bacteria the load became too much for the immune system again and the illness returned.  I'm thinking that if CAP had to be restarted then would different abx have to be used? 

 Complete eradication isn't the goal in lyme treatment either, the aim is to get the bacteria down to a level we can live with but the threat of resistance if there's a need to start again seems to make the timing of this a tricky decision.

Elinor ..... from England  on CAP, doxy/roxi/tini  for ME/CFS/lyme borreliosis, positive Cpn and borrelia. Started Aug05, stopped Jan06, started again Sept 06.

Elinor ..... from England  on CAP, doxy/roxi/tini  for ME/CFS/lyme borreliosis, positive Cpn and borrelia. Started Aug05, stopped Jan06, started again Sept 06.