MediTest
Submitted by Maple on Wed, 2010-03-17 00:58

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I can't add anything about calcium pyruvate because I don't use it ( I just stick to the Wheldon protocol) but I do take both Doxy pills together first thing in the morning. I do have to take a small quantity of food with them, if I don't I have to vomit. Image removed.

speedbird

I never added the calcium pyruvate either.  Over the past 3 years I have stuck with the basic Wheldon protocol, have switched out a couple of ABX, but gone back to the basics as well (but have added various supplements/adjuncts)  

I might also add the calcium pyruvate addition was a theory:

http://cpnhelp.org/emerging_stratton_protoco

Dr. Stratton outlines below the experimental protocol that they have found, in a small subset of cases, to offer less difficult and faster treatment of Cpn. Please remember that this is experimental, and has not been clinically used with a wide array of Cpn related diseases yet, so should not be engaged in without a knowledgeable clinician to monitor treatment.

Perhaps those who tried calcium pyruvate can vouch if they felt it was effective and what a difference, if any, they may have noticed in taking it.    Maybe a quick site search? 

If the question is about the closeness to enzymes, (especially the InterFase Plus with the EDTA) what you have been told probably is correct, but I don't know that for a fact.

Yes, you can  take your doxy all at once or BID, whatever your stomach can handle  :) 

 

JeanneRoz

JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni

Neither have I used pyruvate, so I don't know.   But I do have some comments about scheduling.  

I was brought up short - as in hitting a stone wall - a year ago when I was taken at ever-increasing speed,  back to the bottom when I stopped all abx, thinking I was done.  I had to go back on the whole Wheldon protocol and add Amoxicilin and twice a day flagyl (the original Stratton protocol, I think), while still taking Rifampin and NAC.  I have realized that this bug will take every advantage and have tightened my schedule to try to hit as hard and unrelentingly as possible.  I believe the half-lives of these drugs for people like me can make a real difference.  Therefore I take my abx in two doses (actually four with Rifampin)

I will briefly list my schedule, which gets everything done in twelve hours, with a little flexibility and one eye on the clock.  Rifampin 300mg before getting up, Amoxicillin, flagyl, Doxy, Azith MWF 50 minutes later.  I know this is working because I can already feel the Rifampin.   15 minutes later I take 1 1/2 caffeine pills (300 mg).   By the time we are done in the barn an hour or so later, I am "whirly-headed" (not too sure what that is, but it describes it), staggery, and slow-moving.  Back in the house, after two hours, I have morning supps and more food, by now feeling really slammed.  After lunch come the rest of supps,with a snack by 3PM, so I can do the two hours before Rifampin at 5PM.  We can have some dinner about fifty minutes later with the rest of abx - Amoxicillin, Doxy, and flagyl.  The result of this is that, whirly-headed or not, my right side is steadily improving, with more control of my leg, my vertigo is gone, my joints don't hurt, and many, many other symptoms are gone.

Rica

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

Hi, I have taken the Calcium Pyruvate but not in the high doses suggested to increase die-off.  I took it as an energy adjunct based on my body weight.  You can find some information regarding it at www.wholehealth.com where I purchased mine.  If it is not explained regarding the dosage per bodyweight then it is included when the supplement is sent out.     Yes I found that it was helpful for energy but I stopped when I added methylation supports which helped me even more to sustain activity and more.   I write about this addition in my blogs.

The only negative beyond how the 200mg Doxy at one dose has for some of us is that it brings the level of the drug high enough to cause more die off in the hours after you take it.  Some people have gotten around this by taking it later in the day and sleeping through the effects.   I was on 200mg twice a day for 3 months and I can say that it was much stronger die off than 100mg twice a day for the following 2 months when I reduced the dosage after the two months I started my tini pulses and many things began to take a turn for the better.   

Each of us is similar but different.  I hope the 200mg Doxy once a day works well for you.  It would seem easier to take it all at once if you can do it.

Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Personally, I think including pyruvate is the wrong direction to go in.  It feeds the Chlamydia and causes them to reproduce, increasing the disease burden.  That much is certain.  Any countervailing benefits are unproven. I believe it is largely irrelevant whether Chlamydia in the reproductive state are more vulnerable to death-by-antibiotic, because the most successful Chlamydia-killers are likely to be the natural ones -- the immune system, antimicrobial peptides, and lysosomes/autophagy.  These natural methods do not depend on CPn being in the reproductive state.  More reproduction and more killing means more die-off symptoms.  The outcome of a pyruvate protocol may be more die-off symptoms with no decrease in the underlying disease load, even if the benefits are as claimed, which I doubt.

I know Dr Stratton gives the idea some support.  But I think Dr. Wheldon's skepticism is more sensible.  The pyruvate idea reminds me of the Marshall Protocol, which starts from one important observation (that pathogens block or downregulate the VDR) and extrapolates via speculation to a treatment protocol that has a chance in a million -- I'm being generous here -- of being right.

My own success came from starving the bugs.  A low-carb, Paleo diet, lots of coconut oil to supply ketones to the brain and nerves and keep blood sugar down, aim for blood sugar around 75 mg/dl with no spikes, add vitamin D, and you're already halfway to a cure, and minimal bacterial reproduction means that die-off symptoms are never severe after the first months.  Pyruvate is exactly the opposite approach -- feed the bugs.  Big mistake, I think.  Maybe it's not too harmful for people on high-carb diets, but they shouldn't be on those diets at all.

Blogger at http://perfecthealthdiet.com. 17-year chronic illness cured with diet and antibiotics, nearly fully recovered.

             

Having used both calcium pyruvate and caffeine to try and stimulate the CBs back into either RB or EB for, I know which one has had more of an impact on me without question.  Caffeine.  I take 200mg with morning and evening abx and each time the dose really hits me hard.  I get a very lethargic and inflammed feeling, presumably from all the bacteria being reactivated and caught in the cross fire of the antibiotics at the same time.  It's definitely not an easy thing to experience and seriously impacts my ability to stand and move around, big time. So hopefully, it works in the manner it's intended to work!  Man am I digging a hole even more for myself if it isn't.

With respect to PaulJ's success with low-carb, the rise on my condition begain with low-carb over ten years ago.  I was using it at the time to lose weight, which works.  I lost 90 lbs before I switched diets to one that doesn't exacerbate M.S. and got much better immediately.  Low-carb is frequently high in iron which we know for a fact is something Cpn wants and needs to flouish.  I went from relatively normal seeming to becoming unable to walk for more then short distances.  It was horrible and got significantly better without low-carb.  But, what works for PaulJ may work better for you then it does for me.  That's just my experience with it.

And high carb diets really depend on what kind of carb's we're talking about.  Some food isn't healthy while other food is.  I think you're probably better off seeing how these things affect you before you make a decision about it.

 

best, JohnRRMS/EDSS was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006nac 4x600 mg/daydoxycycline 2x100mg/dayazithromycin 3x250mg/day MWFmetronidazole 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Hi John - Interesting experience.  Diet-health interactions are complex.  Low-carb diets don't have to be high in iron.  Mine isn't.  I had extreme die-off symptoms in the first two months on low-carb and subsequently developed scurvy on the low-carb diet, which was fixed by supplementing vitamin C.  Definitely nutrient needs are very different.  I've also had difficulty supplementing niacin, while many people here take it and recommend it.  Maybe different pathogens, or subtle differences in body state with big differences.  I'm curious what your current diet is, the one that improved your MS symptoms.

Best, Paul

Blogger at http://perfecthealthdiet.com. 17-year chronic illness cured with diet and antibiotics, nearly fully recovered.

PaulJ              

The diet I followed wasn't a preset diet, following certain meals at certain times but rather a set of recommendations as outlined below.

http://www.ms-diet.org/

However, the group of people who followed this plan would exchange recipes on occasion and I would try them myself from time to time.  The reasons this diet works is because it doesn't feed Cpn, not because of the theory about what causes MS that this group has or had.  At the time, Cpn wasn't known or discussed openly by the group and it was only through trial and error that we figured out what was better or worse at the time.

Now, since we know that Cpn is involved, it's clear that by not feeding Cpn, the food you eat can be easier on you as well.  The science explains why some food is more well tolerated/accepted then other foods.

A number of people on this site migrated here after finding out about Sarah and the news that she was helped by the CAP.  So, despite the fact that MS is not caused by what that group theorizes about MS, the diet they devised is very helpful and I consider it a good adjunct to follow if food is causing problems sometimes.  I still do every day.

best, JohnRRMS/EDSS was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006nac 4x600 mg/daydoxycycline 2x100mg/dayazithromycin 3x250mg/day MWFmetronidazole 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Two things; first, whether I should or shouldn't be on a high-carb diet,  PaulJ, I chose not to alter my diet at all when I started this protocol.  It was the only way to know the protocol was effecting change. Not diet, not exercise, not yoga, only the meds.

For those of you concerned whether this protocol can help you, without altering your diet, I am living proof that it can.

Second, could you provide some reference for this comment, please. " It (pyruvate) feeds the Chlamydia and causes them to reproduce, increasing the disease burden.  That much is certain."

Thanks!

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

When I started treatment, David thought it  best to follow Stratton's guidelines and eat a very high-carb diet.  I soon rebelled because it made me feel weighted down so I guess I didn't change my diet at all: not high or low-carb, just a good, healthy diet.  And you know what?  I am now the identical weight to what I was when I was eighteen.  Mind you, I do eat less now than I did say ten years ago, because I don't get so hungry, presumably because I am no longer feeding an army of nasties.

As for calcium pyruvate, I never took it because I had largely finished treatment before it was thought of............Sarah

An Itinerary in Light and Shadow

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

MacKintosh - pyruvate is an intermediate in the glycolysis-fermentation energy cycle that bacteria use.  Most bacteria can use any of glucose, pyruvate, lactate for energy.  Somewhere in the Stratton papers it says that CPn lack a gene for glycolysis and therefore use pyruvate and lactate but not glucose for energy.  The pyruvate and lactate are stolen from the human cells they reside in.

This makes CPn well suited to infecting the neurons, because neurons generally rely on neighboring glioma cells to perform glycolysis and provide them with pyruvate, which are their energy source.  So there is a steady pyruvate shuttle going into neurons which CPn can intercept.

It seems likely that pyruvate is the main energy source for CPn under most intracellular conditions.  Giving it more pyruvate will allow it to manufacture more proteins, reproduce, and do whatever nasty things it feels like.

I have no doubt that the antibiotics will help anyone with a chronic infection like this.  I just think that a cure will happen a lot faster if you're on a low-carb, low-toxin diet.  I suspect the people here who have gone through 30 monthly cycles and still have huge die-off effects every cycle are all eating very high-carb diets.

John - Yes, that's a pretty good diet. Thanks for the link.

Blogger at http://perfecthealthdiet.com. 17-year chronic illness cured with diet and antibiotics, nearly fully recovered.

I have been on the MS diet many months before starting protocol. From my experience low carb healthy diet triggers die-off, so for sure it slightly upgrades immunity.

On the other hand I would propably eradicate CPN for 20 years with this diet, so I would rather not over estimate that part. Anyway there is no doubt that healthy diet works synergisticaly with the protocol.

 

CFS, Severe Peripheral neuropathy, Insomnia, Azitromycine/Clarithromycine/Roxytromycine, Doxycycline 2x100mg, Caffeine every day, Tinidazol for pulsing, ACC 2 x 600 mg -  treatment duration: 24 months