Proposed US HealthCare Reform Bill, is it Death to Seniors and Disabled --

If you don't want to read all 50 reasons, at least read the ones at the
>> bottom on Page 425 & 427.  This is scary stuff especially if you are
>> approaching the group referred to as elderly
>>     For those who do not have the time (our Democratic House committee has stated they
>> read and discussed the 1100 pages in a 6 hour meeting- they must all be
>> speed readers and fast talkers) or inclination to wade through the 1100 page
>> Proposed Health Care Bill, the below are some interesting but very
>> disturbing facts particularly pages 425,427 that really is euthanasia for the
>> elderly or disabled that includes most of us.

>>      It is high time that liberal partisan politics stop playing games with our
>> lives and get back on the road to reality!



>> 1) Pg 22 mandates that the Government will audit books
>> of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure. So every employer in the United States
>> will be subjected to a health insurance audit just as all taxpayers are
>> subject to audit. Of course, we will have to pay for an entire new
>> bureaucracy to do this--the Internal Health Revenue Service
>> 2) Pg 30, Sec 123 states that there will be a
>> government committee that decides what treatments you are allowed and
>> what your overall benefits are.

>> 3) Pg 29, lines 4-16 basically mandates the rationing
>> of health care as is being done in Canada.

>> 4) Pg 42 recognizes the power of the Health Choices
>> Commissioner to determine your health benefits. You will have no
>> choice.

>> 5) PG 50, section 152 states that free, tax payer-paid
>> health care will be given to the 30 million non-citizens in the USA, even
>> illegal aliens.
>> 6) Pg 58 states that government will have possession of
>> all your health care records & history including finances and you will
>> have to have a National ID Healthcard.
>> 7) Pg 59, lines 21-24 gives direct access to your banks
>> accounts to compel you to pay any out-of-pocket or premium costs
>> electronically without your previous consent.

>> 8) PG 65, sec 164 provides for a political payoff from
>> the Democrats and Obama; a special subsidized plan for retirees and their
>> families in unions community groups like ACORN.

>> 9) Pg 72, lines 8-14 creates a Health Care Exchange to
>> bring private health insurance plans under government control.  This
>> part of the bill reveals Obama’s lies about being able to keep your plan
>> if you like it.  Any health insurance plan which does not completely
>> rework itself to conform to these regulations will be dropped from the
>> exchange and those insured will have to pick one of the plans in the
>> exchange. This is why the Congressional Budget Office determined that
>> over 20 million will lose the coverage they are now enjoying if Obamacare is
>> implemented.
>> 10) PG 85, line 7 provides specifics for benefit levels
>> for all health plans, giving government the right to ration everyone’s
>> healthcare.
>> 11) PG 91, lines 4-7 mandates that doctor’s offices,
>> clinics and hospitals provide language-appropriate services, basically
>> ordering them to hire translators at the expense of the American
>> taxpayer.

>> 12) Pg 95, lines 8-18 allows the government to hire
>> non-profit community groups like ACORN and Americorps to sign up people
>> for the government health plan.

>> 13) PG 85, line 7 provides for specifics on benefit
>> levels for Medicare recipients, basically rationing the care of every
>> senior citizen in the United States.
>>14) PG 102, lines 12-18 mandates that all Medicaid
>> eligible will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid based upon income and
>> insurance status. No choice.
>> 15) Pg 124, lines 24-25 states that no private company
>> or individual can have the right to sue the federal government for
>> medical price fixing, basically eliminating your right to seek redress in the
>> courts regarding your medical care.
>> 16) Pg 127, lines 1-16 dictates doctors’ payment and
>> therefore income which will reduce what doctors earn and lead to greater
>> shortages of doctors and more rationing of care.
>> 17) Pg 145, line 15-17 any employer not currently
>> insuring their employees must enroll employees into public plan option,
>> with no choice of private insurance allowed.
>> 18) Pg=2 0126, lines 22-25 mandates that employers must
>> pay for health insurance even for part-time workers and their families,
>> which will certainly lead to massive layoffs.
>> 19) Pg 149, lines 16-24 all employers with an annual
>> payroll bigger than $400k who does not pay to enroll employees in public
>> insurance option will pay an 8% tax on all payroll.
>> 20) Pg 150, lines 9-13 mandates that employers with an
>> annual payroll between $251K & $400K who does not pay to enroll
>> employees in public insurance option will pay a 2-6% tax on all
>> payroll.
>> 21) Pg 167, lines 18-23 any individual who is
>> self-employed and does not have health insurance will be taxed 2.5% of
>> income and forced to accept public health insurance. So paying for health
>> care out of pocket will be banned from the face of the earth.
>> 22) Pg 170, lines 1-3 exempts non-resident aliens from
>> the individual health care taxes, so Americans citizens will pay for
>> these aliens, legal and illegal alike.
>> 23) Pg 195 officers & employees of the new Health
>> Care Administration will have access to all Americans personal financial
>> records and accounts.
>> 24) PG 203, line 14-15 actually says that “The tax
>> imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it says that.
>> 25) Pg 239, line 14-24 mandates that available
>> physician services will be reduced for Medicaid recipients. Many poor
>> people including many seniors will be affected.
>> 26) Pg 241, line 6-8 mandates that all doctors receive
>> the same pay, regardless of specialty. This will vastly reduce the number
>> of specialists available in the United States, a common problem where
>> medicine is socialized like Canada.
>> 27) PG 253, line 10-18 allows the federal government to
>> set the value of doctor's time, professional judgment.
>> 28) PG 265, Sec 1131 mandates and controls the
>> productivity of all health care providers including surgeons!
>> 29) PG 268, Sec 1141 regulates the rental &
>> purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
>> 30) PG 272, Sec. 1145 regulates the operation of
>> certain types of cancer hospitals, again rationing the care of cancer
>> patients.
>> 31) Page 280, Sec 1151 allows the government to
>> penalize hospitals for what is deemed to be preventable
>> readmissions.  So instead of being sued for malpractice, the
>> government will be the punitive body when mistakes are made.
>> 32) Pg 298, lines 9-11 mandates that if a doctor treats
>> a patient during initial admission and that result in a re-admission, the
>> doctor will be subject to federal penalties. Gee do you think that’s
>> going to drive up the cost of malpractice?
>> 33) Pg 317, lines 13-20 will create prohibitions on
>> ownership and investment in the health service industry for
>> doctors.
>> 34) Pg 317-318, lines 21-25, and 1-3 will prohibit the
>> expansion of all hospitals. Don’t we already have a bed shortage?
>> 35) pg 321, lines 2-13 allows hospitals to apply for an
>> exception to the expansion rule but they must seek community input
>> first!
>> 36) Pg335, lines 16-25, Pg 336-339 mandates the
>> establishment of outcome based health care and insidious idea that
>> actually limits the treatment choices made by patients with their
>> doctors, based upon the patient’s health and condition. This will result in the
>> oldest, weakest and sickest patients being denied treatments simply
>> because the statistics for success in their demographic category are
>> poor!
>> This is a form of health care rationing that will save money at the
>> expense of seniors to help buy insurance for the uninsured, most of whom
>> are young and healthy!

>> 37) Pg 341, lines 3-9 allows the government to
>> disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans and HMO forcing people into the
>> government run public plan.
>> 38) Pg 354, Sec 1177 will arbitrarily restrict the
>> enrollment of special needs children and adults.
>> 39) Pg 379, Sec 1191 mandates the creation of even more
>> bureaucracy in the Telehealth Advisory Committee.
>> 40) PG 425, lines 4-12 mandates “Advance Care Planning
>> Consultation,” another insidious vehicle to save money by encouraging
>> seniors who are in poor health to be more accepting of death rather than
>> fighting to stay alive and healthy and with their loved ones.
>> 41) Pg 425, lines 17-19 mandates that all senior
>> patients will be consulted regarding living wills, durable powers of
>> attorney.
>> 42) PG 425, lines 22-25, 426 lines 1-3 provides an
>> approved list of end of life resources, to help guide seniors about the
>> process of dying!
>> 43) PG 427, lines 15 mandates program for orders on the
>> end of life, actually giving the government a say in how your life
>> ends!
>> 44) Pg 429, lines 1-9 dictates the frequency with which
>> an Advance Care Planning Consultant will have to meet with patients as
>> their health deteriorates.
>> 45) PG 429, lines 10-12 give an Advance Care Planning
>> Consultant the power to order end of life plans for a patient.
>> 46) Pg 429, lines 13-25 will only allow certain
>> doctors, not necessarily your own physician, to write an end of life
>> order.
>> 47) PG 430, lines 11-15 allows the government to decide
>> what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
>> 48) Pg 469 mandates “Community Based Home Medical
>> Services” through non profits like ACORN. Happy yet that we elected a
>> community organizer to the White House?
>> 49) PG 489, Sec 1308 force taxpayers to pay for
>> Marriage & Family therapy under the public insurance plan.
>> 50) Pg 494-498 allows government to define mental
>> illnesses and what services will be allowed to treat, again rationing
>> this care.


There is a huge effort by the health insurance companies to blockade the plan for a public health insurance option. They are even planting shills in town meetings with local congress members and heckling them. And putting up web sites with lots of stuff intended to scare people.

We have a system controlled by big business--insurance companies. They need a balancing force against their immense and often abused power ---a public plan. Obama's own personal physician says the proposed plan is not going far enough to be truly effective.

All this is right-wing claptrap and scare tactics--the insane dribble some people in this country lap up. (And those Birther digbats too.) Oh and don't forget, Obama is really from the middle east.

As for throwing the disabled and elderly under the train, California Republicans have just done that by huge cuts to services for children, disabled and elderly to our state budget. No taxes for the oil companies but they can now drill off Santa Barbara. 

BTW,most of the stuff in your posting is already done by the insurance companies.

As always, just my 2¢

And don't forget to see the movie Food,Inc. if you want some real conspiracy stuff to worry about!!! God save us from Monsanto!


Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpn. CAP since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NAC,BHRT, MethyB12 FIR Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath

Perhaps instead of a national health plan, the insurance companies, FDA and pharmaceutical companies and hospitals  should be regulated, monitored and brought under control. 

I find it amazing I am charged double for the same bloodwork when I run it through my insurance than if I pay out of pocket.  Also, why was I asked (during one of my emergency room visits) if I was, or could be pregnant , (I laughed.. I'm 54 and been finished w/menopause for about 8 years) only to discover I was charged for a pregnancy test anyway when I reviewed the details of my hospital bill/statement.  These are the types of situations that drive health care up IMO.

Yes, the insurance companies are already mandating alot of what we are eligible under their plan , but because we are paying, we have a choice as to which insurance company we wish to participate in.  Those of us who may have a good plan right now will, most likely, experience even more major negative changes and repercussions if this passes.

I truly do not think this governmental health care situation should be taken lightly.... My concern is the majority of the people DO NOT understand what this is really all about!

It will NOT be better for the majority. This is (IMO) another political  brainwash  for the low income, illegal aliens and those who currently do not have insurance....something for them is better than nothing.

And yes, Monsanto is to be feared.... swine flu shots should be feared .... keep the population sick (or reduce the numbers with mandated vaccination), brainwashed and dependent on the government and big pharma   Conspiracy.. ....IMO it's truth,  (but hey that's just me). 



JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni

We who have insurance are already paying for the uninsured by the outrageous billing done by hospitals and other providers. (as in your example)In the 70's and 80's my husband and I belonged to an HMO started by a local doctor. We had full dental, vision and medical services. Some of the doctors were not the top of the heap but we were teachers just starting out and it was great coverage. The govt plan needs to be like this HMO.

People who are uninsured and receive no services drag down the entire economy of this nation. The Europeans made this connection and that is why they have govt health services. They may not cover everything but neither does private insurance.

As for the illegal aliens, I blame the Mexican govt for not providing a better social network for their citizens. Most very rich people there pay no taxes and so there is very support little to help people get out of poverty. So they come here.

Things need to change south of the border and here too. Big agrabusiness loves illegals so they can abuse the heck out of them and they can't complain. They actually recruit them to work in our meat packing industries in dirty and dangerous conditions. When the Feds round them up, they get another batch. The conditions in the fields in Central Calif are for the most part oppressive--no water, no bathroom breaks and intense heat---a pregnant girl just died there this year.

You have to ask yourself why decent human beings allow these things to happen and it all goes back to profit--lots of it.


Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpn. CAP since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NAC,BHRT, MethyB12 FIR Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath


Hi Jeanne, I can understand your concerns. Change can be scary. On the other hand, our current system is so utterly broken that change is inevitable. I cannot speak to the points you make, since I have not read this bill (1100 pages!!), and would not want to pass judgement without an understanding of the full context of the bill rather than just snippets, but I can tell you about my experience with the medical system in the UK and Spain, both single payer systems that allow supplementary private insurance if desired. In both systems I was able to see a GP within days and specialists within one to two months, without incurring any personal expense. On one ocassion, while unemployed and travelling in Spain, I had an accident which required ER attention. The service was excellent, and when I asked if I needed to pay, since I was no longer officially living there by that time, they looked at me as if I was crazy. The service was free. If I had had the same accident here in the US, I would have gone bankrupt from the medical bills. Not having to worry about becoming bankrupt and homeless, due to the loss of employment linked healthcare, is a great weight off one's mind, and in the long run probably contributes to greater psychological health and improved quality of life. Not having to juggle a gzillion healthcare claims, which is very difficult to do when you are medically down and out, is also a plus.

I have several relatives on the other side of the pond who are at an advanced age, and with an assortment of chronic conditions for many years. All have received very good healthcare, free of charge, and none have been slated for euthanasia! I suppose in this sense, their healthcare is not much different from that received here through Medicare. I am sure there are instances of inept care, as there are everywhere, and that docs there are just as closed minded to the association between infection and chronic illness as they are here, but other than that, the system works quite well. Voters hold government officials responsible for the quality and availability of healthcare through the democratic process, something we are not able to do here with the health insurance companies.

With regards to the issue of whether the system in the UK and Spain would cover the kind of treatment that those of us on this website require, my guess is that they would not, since what we are doing here would probably be considered experimental. Then again, my insurance company here has also resisted coverage, which means that like many of you, I have to pay for my LLMD and most of my meds out of pocket. Whether you like it or not, healthcare in the US is also rationed, perhaps even more than elsewhere, except by private insurance (who benefits from denial of care), rather than government (who is frequently accused of incompetence).

Don't get me wrong, I agree that we need to pay attention to the fine details of the upcomming bill, since none of us wants to see a physicians freedom to practice medicine as they see fit hampered in any way, and patient's options diminished, but we should also not forget that there are 47 million without insurance, many more underinsured and going bankrupt, and many people dying needlessly from treatable illnesses due to a lack of healthcare, and all this in the richest, most industrialized nation on the planet. I have trouble reconciling my humanity with this sad reality. My sense is that what we need is a public/private mix that balances the needs of people like ourselves, who require significant medical freedom, with the humanitarian needs of the uninsured/underinsured. Imagine what life would be like for seniors during this recession if we did not have medicare or if we had done away with social security (both government programs)!

Borrelia, Bartonella, RMSF, Babesia, Mycoplasma, Cpn, EBV, HHV6. GFA, FM, CFS, seronegative Sjogren's, hypothyroid, diabetes, neuropathy, leukopenia, anemia, memory.  Bicillin 3xweek, Factive 5days 2xmonthly, LDN, many supps/herbs

Raven ...I second this:

"God save us from Monsanto" !!!

Everyone really does need to see the movie if they havnt already. It will make you think not twice but three times about reading the label on things. 

It wouldnt surpise me if "roundup" is the reason human beings have plant bacteria growing in them.

Oh no, I think Ive just created another conspiracy theory.

Quick somebody patent it



EDIT >>> So, I just googled roundup + morgellons and there are all kinds of hits !!








I just dialed in to a town hall meeting with congressman Mike thompson. He dispelled a lot of the myths  and distortions stated in the list above. The republicans are doing a good job of scaring some people obviously.

Glad you have insurance paid for by an employer now Jeanneroz. It's nice to think it is someone else and not you.  

However, companies and governments are dropping employee health care because the cost is high and becuase of the economy (14000 people a day), I don't think employers will continue health insurance as we know it in the future. The escalating costs are unsustainable.

  Watch to this video, and the insurance executive tends to agree that even you will have a high deductable plan soon.


CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  


I guess we will find out if these are myths or not, if this bill is passed.  Just to clarify: 

1.  I am no longer employed, I became "disabled" in March of 2007 when I began treatment for CPN.   The CAP literally took me down big time.  I, just, in April of this year (2009) have started to be what appears to be functional again.   I was severely debilitated off and on most of 2007 through 2008, didn't really leave my home, drive, and had to use a wheelchair.  

2.  My insurance is provided through my employed husband. But I am thankful for it and we will not be eligible to continue it when he retires in about 5 years.  

3.  Insurance companies ---I've had many bad experiences... never have trusted them and yes they continue to limit what they provide --  but my issue is about fighting for our right to CHOOSE and our FREEDOMS.  

When I was employed and became ill, I had to hire an attorney to fight for my private ST and LT disability (which I won -- it's all, unfortunately a game) to pay me. Additionally, I had to use an attorney to apply for and obtain DSSI benefits (for which I qualified and now obtain).   The last thing a sick person needs to deal with.

4.  I recently became eligible for and declined Medicare, as it would have created more problems for me since I am covered under my husband's insurance.  I do not know if this was a mistake, but believe it was in my best interest.

5.  I pay for quite a bit of my tests, supplements and health care out-of-pocket (and no I am not wealthy).  Most of the testing and healthcare (I) require is not "accepted" by allopathic providers (except mine, who is also holistically oriented.

FWIW ... just giving a clarification of my situation.....





JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni

Lucky for you you have health insurance thru your husbands company, and assitance thru the governemnt by the way of ssdi, and private insurance that you were able to afford. I take it you are an average US household making the median household income of $50,033 a year?  I'm single and pay my own insurance out of pocket to the tune of $920 a month. Insurance is expected to increase by 9% next year. That will make it around $1020 a month. Given the job market, I can't see how many individuals, not just the poor and immigrants will be able to foot a $1000 monthly health insurance bill for an extended period epecially if forced into a career change like somone in manufacturing, customer phone support, or whatever that finds himself out of work when his job is shipped overseas. I guess all those people should be forced into bankruptcy if they get sick? Or what do you propose should happen to the people out of work, or with a temporary job that can't afford the $1000 a month program?





CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

For those of us who may be trying to follow you on this, it would be helpful if you could first, identify the bill (i.e. H.R. 3200) and second, identify the section number rather than the page number since the various reporting services paginate the bills differently (your page 425 might be 417 in the text that I have and that's just a recipe for confusion). 

It would also be helpful if you could provide the URL where you downloaded the text of the proposed legislation and this summary since I don't think the commentary on this particular bill is accurate.  For example, point 12 states that Americorps is a "non-profit community group" like ACORN when in fact, Americorps is a program of the Corporation for National and Community Service, an independent agency of the Federal Government (  Americorps provides volunteers who work with a number of non-profit groups, but it is itself a government agency.


CAP for M.S. 8/2007 - 3/2009.  Twentieth pulse metronidazole + INH completed 3/12/2009.  Intermittent treatment thereafter until 11/20/2009.  

hdwit and others, here is the link to download H.R.3200..  This summary was provided to me in a personal email.


JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni

Once upon a time, health care was not corrupt. The aim of medicine was to heal the sick. The docter was motivated to cure the sick and the drug companies were motivated to create the drugs to cure the sick.

Eventually with the increase in human materialism and decrese in human spirtuality this very functional triad shifted its roles resulting in mass dyfunction and deciet.

Assuming we have come to agree at this point that one thing is in fact true. That the only motivation behind the drug companies is to make money, We have to recognize that in different situations, the drug companies will be motivated to act differently in regards to the players depending on where they need to manipulate the sytem to get thier payoff.

As a canadian who has had direct expereince with a socialized health care system since it began, here are the consequences to health care which is paid for by the Government. ( sorry for the sp, im tired its late )


Because docters are subjected to govt imposed fees for services, they become unmotivated to really help patients. They know that thier practise will always be buzy simply because its no cost to patients. Its similar to a budget airline, lots of traffic but poor service. Service decreases when thier is no motivation. If a dr is being paid the same thing to work hard or not to work hard, and will still see the same volume of patients regardless, he will choose not to expend any effort and thus carry on in his daily routine seeing patients with little genuine concern. Why make extra effort when you dont have to? Compensation is the motivation to work hard, and when compensation is standardized whether you work hard on not.. you simply dont bother to work hard... why should you?


Because of the fact that docters are paid standard govt imposed fees for services, they are highly succeptible to being manipulated by drug company incentives This is when a drug company will offer a dr perks or incentives if the dr prescribes the drug companies medications to his patients. This results in a decrease of quality service to the patient because the docter is focused on the drug companys compensation and not in satisfying the patient. Remember, whether or not the dr satisfys the patient, the dr in canada will still get paid the same amount at the end of the day and if the patient leaves dissatisfied there will always be another patient waiting in line to fill the space

- the result of this is docters prescribing drugs and wholey dismissing patient concerns and ilnesses.

IN THE USA, although it occurs, this dynamic does not occur as easily. Docters are still somewhat motivated by patients, being that it is often the patients who will pay them. The docters have to provide at least some measure of satisfaction or the patient will leave the practise, which will result in a loss of finacial gains for the dr and bad publicity. This is not to say that drug company manipulation doesnt happen in the usa as well because it certainly does, however it simply doesnt happen as a rule. Being that health care is free in canada, this type of dynamic ( poor service, drug company paid off physicians and resulting drug pushing on patients ) is the standard of care. This is not the case in the usa, and this is primarily what we are aiming to prevent - a standard of care controlled by drug company bribery and manipulation


Free health care is costly to the country. Because of this, taxes increase. When it becomes clear that the demand for health care is more than what the govt can afford, health care options are cut. That cut is in the form of removing standard bloodwork, certain blood tests, and basic testing for infectous agents which cause disease.


Dr's in canada get frowned upon for tests that come back normal because it becomes an indication of the dr's lack of ability to discern illness properly and do his job correctly.He is seen as incompetant and wasting money. Because health care is free, requisitioned tests by dr's are closely monitered. If a dr is found to be requisitioning tests for patients that continuously come back negative, the Dr is greatly frowned upon, considered not to be good at thier job, and thus becomes the subject of scrutiny by the medical system. The result of this is that they may not offer you tests you actually need for fear that you may be a patient that will have negative tests. This would make them look bad, and draw attention to thier so called lack of skill and wasting of health care money. The result of this is begging physicians for tests that you may desperatly need and the dr flat out refusing. This results in you having to go to another and another and another dr until you find one who will do the test. Once you finally find one who will order the test, you have wasted enough tax payers money in numerous consultations that the total would have covered the test in the first place. This is how health care funds get wasted. which leads us to...


Because people cant get what they want and need from dr's, they go Dr hopping ( since dr's are free ). They go from dr to dr (which again wastes health care funds/ tax payer dollars) until they find the one who will give them what they need. Often this process takes a very long time and the result may include a worsening of the illness leading to repeated emergency visits and thus using more tax payers dollars and more health care funds. This wasting of govt health care dollars results in more cuts and it becomes a viscious circle



Chrionic health problems cost money to treat. The result of this is dr's being deterd from diagnosing chronic curable conditions such as lyme disease. Lyme disease diagnosis and treatment is not accessible in canada and if a dr attempts to treat and diagnose lyme disease in canad he is labelled as a quack. Because curing chonic disease is costly, difficult. The dr's dont want the headache, ( they wouldnt get any better compensation) The govt doesnt want the expense, and the drug company doesnt want you getting better. Its 3 against 1, you arent allowed to have lyme or anything else possibly curable. To prevent this, the medical system removes tests from the health care system altogether thus you never know what you actually have and never know what you may be missing


If you get too many negative tests, the dr has to deter you in some way. The only way that has become acceptible is to push the paitient into mental health care, hypochondrism, fibromyalgia, lyrica, painkillers, antidepressants etc. Dr's can bill alot more for psychotherapy then they can a standard medical appointment in canada. Why help a patient get to the root of the problem and listen to thier unlimited miserable complaints, thus have to do research and actually work to find answers for 30 bucks a vist when instead youas a dr can convince them they are imagining the whole thing for 90 bucks a visit.


Drug companies need us to be sick, and because its the drs who treat us, the drug companies work extra hard to change and influence the medical industry's perceptions of what illness actually is. Docters in canada became brainwashed in thier complicancy and desire for incentives and compensation. These dr's start becomming puppets for the drug companies and before you know it, they are dictating to the public and influencing the general publics consensus of what is illness actually is.Years ago illness was widely believed to be caused by infection, yet now days illness is an uncurable condition requiring drugs.We are all being manipulated to fall into this drug pushing mentality.

Canadian dr's are more succeptible to keeping thier patients sick because they are not forced into or motivated to do the research on thier conditions, ( again because they get paid the same whether the research or not ) and ultimatly they dont have to research because they dont need pateints, they have enough already. Thus they compliantly just wander around and spread the distorted perspectives of the drug companies and it becomes the norm. Much easier for them to listen to the drug company reps who are paying them, as opposed to doing some extra research and discovering things that may get them into trouble for treating and diagnosing anyway.


Because of high health care costs, tests that diagnose chronic illness that may be costly to the health care system to treat are discontinued. Instead, drugs are prescibed to treat symptoms instead of recieving a diagnosis. No anitbody blood testing to common infections such as mycoplasma, c pneumoniae or hhv1 chronic infections. these were all discontinued as a result of health care cuts. A person with c pneumoniae or m pneumpniae lung infection would likely be diagnosed with athsma, and the unfortaunate part of it is that c pneumoniae, will eventually with time, cause chronic disease, either heart, brain or neurological. Then the cost to health care increases again, when it all could have been prevented by a simple test. Cuts to health care will occur when health care is free, and the result is an increase in chronic disease due to improper access to diagnosis of simple infectuous agents.



because its free, everyone and his sister and brother are waiting for tests. This test, that test, this specialist and that specialist. Thus, if you have cancer, or a tumor and need treatment, your up the creek in a long waitline. You may end up waiting so long you may die while waiting. It wont matter if you have the money and are willing to pay for it, you still have to wait.


It is much harder to sue a dr in canada then it is in the usa Therefore dr's in canada arent as vigilant as they should be. Its easier to get the wrong drug in a hospital, it easier to have standards of infection control and sanitation that fall short when the government is behind you to back you up. The medical system becomes one giant conspiracy when it comes to sueing a dr in canada , you are no longer suing the dr and his practise, you are suing the docter and the govt care you recived. Judges are not so quick to convict as dr when the dr has the same boss as they do...the govt.


Hospitals are overburdoned, they are understaffed due to cuts to personale. Very long waits occur in the hospitals and the get in and get out mentality is a standard. Many surgeries that should be overnight stays are turned into day surgeries where the patient is sent home while still dependant and ill. Because of this overburdon, the risk of medical errors increases.


Because dr's are free and many leave the country, there is not enough of them for the population. Many people do not have a family dr ( pcp ) and they end up using walk in clinics and hospitals. This results in a lessoned quality of care and again waste of health care dollars in hospital visits.


Dr's and nurses go to the states to find work. there are shoertages of good medical personale. The result is that all the good dr's leave the country to find work that is motivating, less controlled and rigid, more challenging and fairly compensated.








well now here is a highly contentious discussion, I will just wade in here to first defend Canada's healthcare system.  Every man, woman & child has no need to worry about insurance.  If you have an employer who offers insurance coverage, you would traditionally pay for 1/2.  Our 1/2 for family cover from my husband is about $200 more than a single cost per month.

Our healthcare is not free, it is covered out of the government coffers & funded by the taxpayers of the country.  Like other countries, say Denmark for e.g.  the system works fairly well, THOUGH it is not perfect.

I am in favour of an even better system than what we have that allows Canadians to go a little bit more entrepreneurial like our cousins to the south.  I believe our 2 tier system, that allows doctors to open clinics, diagnostics are privately owned etc. should expand even further to more services like surgery.  I think our Federal Government should pony up & define essential services so that the provinces all have a basic guideline as to what they must cover for everyone.  I believe this would give insurance company's more opportunity to operate by selling more addiitonal cover through employers & individuals but still have the anti selection protection for all consumers.  I hope that makes sense.

I think all health related systems need to be tightened up from the grass roots on up.  Big pharma & insurance need to get their noses out of the big healthcare in the US.  Lobby groups have far too much power in the USA imho. It is far too easy in the present state of government in the US for officials to become corrupt & they do.  I believe it should be run privately but legislated & controlled over all by government.  This would keep, or should keep everyone honest if that is possible in this greedy world we live in.

It is absolutely a crying shame that a country as big & vast & worldly as the United States is about 3rd up from the bottom in infant mortality rates around the world per capita.  I heard this on our Canadian news one day & thought that makes sense for the numbers of people who are not insured AT ALL.

This would not make Jesus happy.  We are not to be discriminated by where we are born in this world.  We are one world & the whole 80% of the world's wealth is being hoarded by 20% of the population will have to change.  Jesus lives in all of us, he is real, he is a person & he walked this earth as a living example of how people should be living. 

We are only as good as our weakest link in all manner of services & government.   We have alot of weak links.  Look at other countries around the world who are practicing public medicine & go from there.  Change is needed, is the present bill just right as of yet.  NO, but, there are some positives & I think we have to start somewhere????  Yesss?

As I said, a combination of our system in Canada with yours in the USA with tighter legislation needed for all manner of services....need I mention banks in the USA!!!  Greed should not be allowed to run rampant in the US again or it will be ruined - bankrupt.  Government has to stand as policy makers so that the rights of all citizens are protected.  Not just the people who are privileged to be born into money & services.


I had to use the USA for services because Canada's system is flawed.  I have Lyme Disease for very many years before being diagnosed.  I probably don't have to tell you what mayhem that has caused me in my life & how much I have cost the "system".  Not all doctors here are afraid to order tests but I do know a few docs who ordered tests & because "most people" have the HHV-6 & ??? & some docs do order too many tests with too many negatives.  Having said that, I have one doc who has CFIDS & he ordered this one test that showed 4/5 people positive & the College of Physicians gave him a call & told him the govt had disallowed him ordering any more of those tests. 

 Like I say, the system is not perfect; what is???  But can we make it better & more accessible for more people.

Just my rant,





CFIDS/ME, FMS, MCS, IBS, EBV, CMV, Cpn, H1, chronic insomnia, Chronic Lyme, HME, Babesia, Natural HRT-menopause, NAC 2.4 gm,Full CAP 6-2-07, all supplements+Iodorol, Inositol-depression, ultra Chitosan, L lysine Pulse#27 04-19-10 1gm Flagyl/day-5 days<

In my opinion, it is hard to see change from any other perspective than what you have now that may be working well for you.  

However, many of us could be in the next batch of unemployed through no fault or deficiencies of our (or our spouse's) and from industries that are failing here in the US and moving off shore, so the likelihood of rehire with the same secure employer provided health insurance benefits is getting closer and closer to home is becoming less of a certainty. 

Personally, about 15 years ago our family found itself in the same sort of situation, company husband working for going down the tubes, he was finally laid off with severance then I was replaced for a less educated worker for less than half the price, so we went on cobra for 4 months with my past employer. And that was 15 years ago and for family coverage then it was almost $600/month, both income producers had been laid off, at a time of only unemployment benefit money coming in that was a good percentage of the total monthly family income.   The situation forced a surgery for myself because I was so uncertain about any replacement insurance that I had to take the benefit while we still were insured, the procedure was semi-elective, could have waited but....   A month after the surgery my husband was employed, less salary but good insurance again.  The older you get the more common this is unfortunately.  

People are charged more if they are self pay for services than the insurance companies pay for most services.  I know this first hand by being self billed for a mamogram a number of years ago.  Then correcting the hospital and finally getting the explanation of benefits from the insurance carrier.  What a shock to see the manipulation of the unfortunate uninsured working class individual who is not poor enough to qualify for the medicaid subsidy for the poor.   I was irrate and talked about it for weeks to anyone who would listen.  Still I let no fires with the folks that I talked with about the inequity of the situation.

Several years ago I had a CAT scan of my kidneys.  Doctor scheduled the hospital called to be sure that I had made my copayment amount for the year and to pre-verify that I had insurance that would pay for it with pre-approval of the test and practically insisting that I pay for it in advance.  I used to work for this hospital!  The fact that they likely had past financial records with them with appropriate payements was not even considered.

It is a bit like pharmacy charges with my insurance.  Take tini, I had to fork out over $460.00 initially for the 60 tablet bottle.   Yes my insurance re-embursed me a check for 80% of that as my yearly co-pay had been met.  But to get your medication benefit you have to have the full cash amount of the drug on hand first before you can get it.   If you are living really tight how can people do this, so they don't get their meds. 

I personally am in favor of any change that begins to move us in the direction of healthcare for the working class individual.   Fear based logic does not work from my perspective.

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
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Jeanne. When I applied for disability, I was also rejected and  I actually couldnt even get a lawyer. They would take one look at me, see that Im not in a wheelchair and then tell me they were too buzy already. I had one secretary tell me over the phone that the lawyer is a great person and that he'd be very happy and available to take on my case (after hearing I have MS)... but then when he saw me walking, he told the secretary to tell me hes too buzy at this time to take on any new cases. It was the similar story with every lawyer I went to.

Eventually I gave up and had to do the research myself,( become my own lawyer). I had to figure out what was wrong with my dr's letters and then have my dr's change specific wording in letters. I had to get new letters, old tests, and run around doing photocopies, requisitioning information from hospitals etc. All this while I was very very sick, in incredible pain, hungry, malnourished, off work and on welfare.

When i resubmitted the revamped file for court, it was immediatly approved before the court date and I didnt even have to go to court. When i spoke to the people at the disability office I remembering them saying ' the additional information that your lawyer submitted was sufficient to approve the case without having to go to court". Little did they know...I was the lawyer! 

Point to the story is that because of the terrible health care here, so many people are sick. Because of this, so many people are trying to get on diability, even the lawyers are overwhelmed and the result is people who are very sick cant get a lawyer thus they give up their fight. Ultimatly many are forced to suffer on welfare when they should be recieving disability benefits.









jeanne roz and clammed up, I stand with you two on this matter. Please God and U.S. legislators, preserve us from the erosion of our liberties, health, and standard of living that would come to pass if the currently proposed health care legislation is passed.  When did so many of us begin to think of ourselves as having been adopted by the U.S. government?  When did so many of us begin to look toward the government as a "God" figure?  To think that our government can do something like healthcare right when other countries of the world have failed to do it well is the height of arrogance, not to mention that the government has such a long and voluminous track record for doing things like this badly.  Don't fool yourselves and believe that other countries with government provided/controlled healthcare are offering something that would be acceptable to Americans.

I'll take a life with choices, personal responsibilities, earned benefits, suffered consequences, all of my own doing through the choices, plans and sacrifices that I make, through happenstance, and by the grace of the real God, thank you very much.  This all has very much to do with the difference between giving a man a fish or teaching him to fish.  We are our brother's keeper, but there are wrong ways and right ways to "keep" a brother.  As for the indigent who need healthcare, they're getting it already.  If they are not getting it, there is a "responsible" party who is neglecting to get them to the source of it.  If we had government provided/controlled healthcare, those responsible parties would still neglect to get those in their care to the source of the needed healthcare.  Or do you think it's the government's responsibility to police that too?  Sheesh!

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, Cpn, Mpn, B. burgdorferi, systemic candidiasis, EBV, CMV & other herpes family viral infections, elevated heavy metals, gluten+casein sensitivity. 

I joined an advocacy group for compounding pharmacies as I need to take several compounded medications. They have been under attack by Big Pharma for compounding bioidentical HRT.

They have published a detailed account of items in the health care bill that would affect our access to compounded meds.

They are working to help modify the provisions that would insure patient choice in medications of this kind.


Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpn. CAP since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NAC,BHRT, MethyB12 FIR Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath

What about avoiding the political/personal side of this and just come up with ideas that may help the final solution?


I am of the impression that treating people in emergency rooms is not effective, neither is forcing people into bankruptcy after they get sick without coverage becuase they are out of work temporarily or neglected to buy insurance becuase of the cost. However, I don't think the country can afford to pay for everybody to have every procedure that is currently available to congress.

What if there were a private plan solution that would be a bare bones solution paid for by a tax on everybody similar to unemployment insurance. So if somebody doesn't have an emplyer plan they could enroll in this bare bones plan that would cover basic preventative screening and major illness type prcedures. Like most prescipriotns wouldn't be covered, and not all kinds of redudant testing. But if you walk in and have had a stroke or heart attack or broken arm you could get it fixed without having to file for bankruptcy.

 I think the same could apply to medicare, it may make sense to dial back some of the spending on the old farts when they are close to death. Like no getting two new knees, a new hip and all that other stuff before dying a year later.

 Just some thoughts for a more productive discussion.



CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

From a French perspective, I am finding it extremely difficult to comprehend why so many Americans are so opposed to some form of overall, universal health coverage. I am quite sure practically NOBODY here in France would be without it. I don't think people in America realise the peace of mind it gives us to know that if we, or people close to us, need very expensive treatment for whatever, we/they will receive it and nobody will have to go bankrupt, nobody will have to choose btwn having Dad treated or keeping the house. And of course, it feels really reassuring to know that if we lose our jobs, then we will be treated for free, no matter what, no questions asked. And doctors are no more (nor less) prevented from prescribing as they wish. Doctors in France are pretty much the same as in America, they used to use their brains now they mainly follow guidelines, but that's not because of how our medical system is organised that's what Evidence-Based Medicine dictates
Nelly (France-neuroLyme and ????)

universal health care is for the healthy. As soon as you come down with a serious illness your screwed

Fibro, CFS,  Myco, CPN, Stratton protocol, Zithro 500mg M/W/F/S, Doxy 100mg 2x day, NAC 1200mg 2x day, Flagyl and INH 2 week pulses 400 mg 3x day, Rifampin, 300mg 2x day,  Still cant shake it but improving.

Here is a very good article


You do not have health insurance. Let me repeat that. You do not have health insurance. (Unless you are over 65, in which case you do have health insurance. I’ll come back to that later.)

The point of insurance is to protect you against unlikely but damaging events. You are generally happy to pay premiums in all the years that nothing goes wrong (your house doesn’t burn down), because in exchange your insurer promises to be there in the one year that things do go wrong (your house burns down). That’s why, when shopping for insurance, you are supposed to look for a company that is financially sound – so they will be there when you need them.

CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

Mark, You wrote "I think the same could apply to medicare, it may make sense to dial back some of the spending on the old farts when they are close to death. Like no getting two new knees, a new hip and all that other stuff before dying a year later." Well, from that perspective, one could look at people with mysterious idiopathic incurable chronic illnesses and devalue their lives in the same way. Yep, I'm talking about this cyber-community. That kind of thinking scares me. All life is precious, and we mortals don't have crytal balls that tell us the future. I would not like to think that other people had that sort of control over my future, especially if they are thinking in the way you proposed. I'll admit I'm Catholic.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, Cpn, Mpn, B. burgdorferi, systemic candidiasis, EBV, CMV & other herpes family viral infections, elevated heavy metals, gluten+casein sensitivity. 



I see you are an advocate for steve, I think that is wonderful.



you french people seem to be a bit more humane I guess. Business is number one here in the US! Not really the way that is best for everybody, but for those it works for it works very well for now.

I have brought up some stuff that is not politcally popular, and have put it very bluntly. Sorry. I happen to be kind of passionate about this health care debate becuase of my recent run-ins with insurance where my health has gotten in the way of profits and it is maddening when one is sick.

I'm not trying to be mean, but trying to put things in a different perspective for the sake of debate. This really comes down to an economical decision for most people, or everybody would have the best health care. So if it is economics we are talking about,we can afford the 2.5 trillion a yr for 80% of people but can't afford another $100billion a yr for the other 20%? We are in fact putting a value on life by denying the 20% that don't have insurance.

When it really comes down to the value of life, is the 28 yr old latino american who cleans your house more valuable economically and worth giving health care to, or is the 78 yr old with alheimerz worth the money? If we are going to limit resources maybe we should put it all on the table? This will never fly but just something to think about.


CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

When it really comes down to the value of life, is the 28 yr old latino american who cleans your house more valuable economically and worth giving health care to, or is the 78 yr old with alheimerz worth the money?


That's exactly why you can't leave this sort of stuff to private business!!

Health Care should not spell M O N E Y for a few but H E A L T H for all.

 Nelly (glad to live in France even if not all is not rosy around these parts)


Nelly (France-neuroLyme and ????)

Ditto, Nelly.  Health care in the UK and in France is aimed at "health for all."  It sholdn't matter if you are a Latino American cleaner or a 78 year old with dementia................Sarah  

An Itinerary in Light and Shadow

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Yes, even if no system is perfect, the present American system scares the s--ts out of me. Once you start to try and rank people in terms of who has more value for society or more earning potential there's no limit. Where do you draw the line? At what age do we have to be carried onto the mountain to die (as was apparently done in past centuries in traditional Japan)? Extreme capitalism aka the law of the jungle or survival of the fittest (or the most brutal) appeals rather moderately to me, which does not mean I want extreme government control over my life either. There surely can be a medium path where society as a whole intervenes to balance out the raw deals life sometimes dishes out. When I first lived in Australia in the 70s I found there was a very good equilibrium btwn too much state intervention and not enough. I felt safe without feeling stiffled. Last time I went there in 1999 things had changed, more towards the American style of government and I honestly didn't like it one bit. Things had become tougher for everybody, and people in turn were less cool, tougher, nastier, less caring. But I digress...
Nelly (France-neuroLyme and ????)

I agree Nelly. Everybody needs insurance and it is very scary being here in the US when it comes to dealing with business. I'm the guy who asked the HR department if I had long term disability insurance, I was told "NO". then terminated a couple weeks later. Tunrd out the company had me covered with a great disailibty package. They were just trying to avoid having the premiums raised. Trying to save a few bucks. How is that for a business decision?

My argument is to try and "turn the tables" on the repulicans that are trying to ruin health insurance reform. I'm trying to point out the reality they may insurance now through a husband or job, but that goes away when you get sick, get divorced or get terminated. So the insurance they think they may have may not necessarily be there when they REALLY need it. As I have discovered the very hard way.

 So yes, lets get people covered, thanks for your support, you can call my congressamn if you would like and I will re-imburse you for the call.






CPN off the charts, EBV, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyria, anxiety, depression, doxy, AMOX, and FLAGYL since JAN 2009,  

the 20 million people that are not covered.. 75 percent of those people make over 75,000 dollars a year. They would just rather buy the big screen TV then to have health care. So my tax payer money is going to people that make more money then I do. Just say no to Socialized health care. Doctors in the US increase at 1% each year. so if we add 20 million people to the health care system. Youll be waiting 6 months for a x ray or MRI. Sure Universal health care is free. free tests, treatment, any doctor you want. Just wait in line for a couple years. Not to mention the average waiting time in a Canadian ER watiing room is 23 hours compared to the US 4 hours.

Fibro, CFS,  Myco, CPN, Stratton protocol, Zithro 500mg M/W/F/S, Doxy 100mg 2x day, NAC 1200mg 2x day, Flagyl and INH 2 week pulses 400 mg 3x day, Rifampin, 300mg 2x day,  Still cant shake it but improving.