Caffein
Hello
How do I time the use of caffein with other supps/meds to get the best results?
Thanks
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Cpnhelp.org
Emerging information about Chlamydia pneumoniae in disease & its treatment. Passing help forward!
The caffeine debate rages hot and heavy here every so often. I, personally, don't think it's a good idea to start out with caffeine at the beginning of the protocol. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing and you can kill too much bacteria at once, thus reaping an overload of toxins in your system and basically knocking yourself on your behind for days or weeks at a time.
I'm not offering any timing suggestions because I think you need to find out how the abxi are going to affect you before you add another cpni-killer into the mix.
The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi
OK
But I need to know what other people are doing so I can decide
Thanks
DAILY: NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , CoQ10 200 mg, vit D3 2,000 IU, multi vits, Folapro, Doxyi 200 mg. 2 or 3 PER WEEK Astaxanthin, Azithromycin 250 mg,B12, Coffee retension enema, Flagyli 6 day pulse, Thyme Thujanol twice a week
Homina
This is always a big topic. MacKintosh gives really good advice. She has been there, as have I, and we concur on this: please wait til you have a better idea how you will manage all this before adding caffeine to your mix. It actuially can, if I understand correctly, release cryptic bodies, and you really don't want them floating around doing their terrible mischief if you don't have a good idea of what you are fighting. Increase your NACi to 2400, get your Doxyi level up to 200 mg a day, and (in my opinion), add Azithromycin. Then, in three months, begin flagyli pulses - or tinidazole. After you have done - say - your tenth or fifteen pulse, think again about caffeine. Just think - don't be too hasty. This is a dangerous adversary. Please don't invte it in to reproduce until you know it better.
You already said you are reacting mildly to NAC. Caffine won't necessaryily hit you intil you start killing it, and it will then either knock you silly - or, I think, kill you. At least, that's what I thought it would do to me on my first pulse.
Rica
3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abxi protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxyi 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyli 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMSi EDSSi 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan In for the duration.
Homina,
I agree with Mack and Katman... it would be wise of you to spend some time reading through this site, the protocol and how others have been affected. Adding caffeine was something that was not part of the original protocol, nor did/does everyone do it. You might want to see how your body handles the antibiotics before you try tweaking anything here.......
You are in the beginning of treatment... I would concentrate on making sure you get all of your supplementsi/ NACi/ moppers and build up your basic ABXi first.
Trust the wisdom of those of us who have been there.... our mantra on this site is: "this is not a race, but a marathon"
JeanneRoz
JeanneRoz ~ DXi'd w/ CPNi 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDSi/FM; also: HHV6, EBVi, IBSi-C, 100 Doxyi:BIDi; 500 mg Biaxin BIDi; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni
OK
I can build up my NACi use first and add in caffeine later
Right now I an only using 250 mg of NAC along with other supps
You mentioned "moppers" are you reffering to stuff like activated charcoal?
Thanks
DAILY: NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , CoQ10 200 mg, vit D3 2,000 IU, multi vits, Folapro, Doxyi 200 mg. 2 or 3 PER WEEK Astaxanthin, Azithromycin 250 mg,B12, Coffee retension enema, Flagyli 6 day pulse, Thyme Thujanol twice a week
JeanneRoz ~ DXi'd w/ CPNi 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDSi/FM; also: HHV6, EBVi, IBSi-C, 100 Doxyi:BIDi; 500 mg Biaxin BIDi; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni
I have to say here
Before I started seeing my Doctor I used Lauricidin for six month
and I practiced Bikram yoga for four months
So I think I may have killed off some Cpni and whatever else is infecting me
I don't think it fully accurate to say I am just starting
Also I kind of think we intuitively know what our bodies need and one of the things I sought out was heat from saunas hot yoga etc and trying to get as much sun as possible
I don't think what I did is the full answer but I think if I were to start with caffeine as part of my protocol it may not hit as hard as it would have
But I'll check with my Doc on this
i did not know caffeine chased cryptic bodies out of the cells
I thought it was just the EBs
DAILY: NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , CoQ10 200 mg, vit D3 2,000 IU, multi vits, Folapro, Doxyi 200 mg. 2 or 3 PER WEEK Astaxanthin, Azithromycin 250 mg,B12, Coffee retension enema, Flagyli 6 day pulse, Thyme Thujanol twice a week
Homina,
Re: "I don't think it fully accurate to say I am just starting"
I believe most of us here, when we refer to "starting" we mean the combination antibiotic protocol as prescribed by Dr's. Stratton and Wheldon.....
JeanneRoz ~ DXi'd w/ CPNi 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDSi/FM; also: HHV6, EBVi, IBSi-C, 100 Doxyi:BIDi; 500 mg Biaxin BIDi; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni
Hi jeanneroz,
Many/most of Dr. S's patients are using caffeine now even though that is not reflected on this site. One of the things that concerns me is that some people are combining two different protocols that have very different strategies. The CAPi that most people here use apparently overwhelms Cpni by using 3 or more drugs. The downside to this approach I think is the one that is often noted here, secondary porphyria. If one assumes that Cpn develops efflux pump resistance to any of the antibiotics within a few days, then it is possible that it would deplete the host cells of ATP by attempting to pump out these antibiotics and this could lead to unwanted side effects such as porphyria.
The caffeine approach is intended to use less antibiotic(s) so that host cells are not as depleted of ATP. Instead of overwhelming the Cpn, this approach is supposed to induce them into the EBi state by lowering intracellulari pH. As they convert from the EB state to RB state a few hours later, they should be vulnerable to any of the common antibiotics that are used although they are most vulnerable to rifamycins at this juncture.
As an interesting note, I was looking at some recent data the other day and it appears that Cpn may develop resistance to commonly used antibiotics (tetracyclines, macrolides, rifamycins) within a few days. On day one there was a big drop off in HSPi-60 and one day 2 there was a slower drop off. After day 3 the HSP-60 declines stopped and never went down further after that. This does not really prove anything but a reasonable theory would be that they make pumps to these agents that are completly effective to a single agent after 3 days.
- Paul
Paul,
You state "most of Dr. S'.s patients.." .... do you mean Dr. Stratton or Sirinam? It is my understanding the caffeine is being prescribed for patients with MSi.
I don't doubt what you are saying but we haven't had an "official" update for the protocol on this site in quite some time and most of us elders encourage newbies to stick with what is known.
IMOi, not sticking with the patent (or what is currently known from this site) might get confusing for some of the newbies. Granted those of us who have been on it a several years have been the guinea pigs so I personally believe we know of what we speak on how the reactions might be.
Many of the newbies don't even try CAP and are all over the place, jmo ;0. Granted we each must discover what works for us, as well as what our doctors are willing to prescribe (unless self-treating) but don't you believe there should be a "base" for this protocol?
As for "The CAPi that most people here use apparently overwhelms Cpnii by using 3 or more drugs" I believe the patent and treatment protocol was developed to add each ABXi "as tolerated". Many newbies try to jump the gun and get overwhelmed with die-off, etc.
Also, the supplementsi and yeast control are VERY IMPORTANT and contribute to porphyriai and other issues. (Been there done that by not being diligent increased/added, as tolerated, and the appropriate supplementation is used.
Just my thoughts... IMO we need to keep it simple until we have an official update.
(Addendum: the last official update on the protocol by Dr. Stratton was adding Pyruvate -- that was in 2008... http://cpnhelp.org/new_pyruvate_protocol --
this link also discusses how Dr. Sirinam is substituting caffeine for pyruvate for his MS patients and some of the members reactions
JeanneRoz
JeanneRoz ~ DXi'd w/ CPNi 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDSi/FM; also: HHV6, EBVi, IBSi-C, 100 Doxyi:BIDi; 500 mg Biaxin BIDi; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni
Thanks JeanneRoz for that clarification
Thanks Paul for the explanation on why caffeine is used
I do have a couple questions
What kind of caffeine is used?
Can I use a very strong green tea as a caffeine source?
Can you splain . "Cpni develops efflux pump resistance"
Also can you explain what you mean by porphyriai in this case?
Thanks
DAILY: NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , CoQ10 200 mg, vit D3 2,000 IU, multi vits, Folapro, Doxyi 200 mg. 2 or 3 PER WEEK Astaxanthin, Azithromycin 250 mg,B12, Coffee retension enema, Flagyli 6 day pulse, Thyme Thujanol twice a week
Homina, here is an explanation of secondary porphyria.... (Have you started reading the "CPNi Handbook"? The tab is located in the upper right-hand corner of this site. I'd suggest you read through all of them :)
Explanation of secondary porphyriai:
http://cpnhelp.org/secondaryporphyria
List of Reactions and remedies to CAPi:
http://www.cpnhelp.org/reactions_and_remedies
JeanneRoz ~ DXi'd w/ CPNi 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDSi/FM; also: HHV6, EBVi, IBSi-C, 100 Doxyi:BIDi; 500 mg Biaxin BIDi; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni
Thanks
I am looking over the Handbook
DAILY: NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , CoQ10 200 mg, vit D3 2,000 IU, multi vits, Folapro, Doxyi 200 mg. 2 or 3 PER WEEK Astaxanthin, Azithromycin 250 mg,B12, Coffee retension enema, Flagyli 6 day pulse, Thyme Thujanol twice a week
Jeanne,
I was referring to Dr. Stratton although Dr. Sirriam also uses this approach with some of his patients as you noted
Homina,
Tea (or other caffeinated beverages) would be fine to get started but would not be adequate for later on where you would be taking doses that would exceed what you could obtain from a beverage.
Efflux pumps are proteins that cells and bacteria make to remove any substance that either builds up in cells (for example from metabolic processes) or environmental contaminants that could damage the cell or bacteria. Chlamydia like all other bacteria make these proteins and we think this is what allows it to survive even when antimicrobial agents that should kill it are present.
- Paul
OK Paul
Thanks for that explanation
DAILY: NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , CoQ10 200 mg, vit D3 2,000 IU, multi vits, Folapro, Doxyi 200 mg. 2 or 3 PER WEEK Astaxanthin, Azithromycin 250 mg,B12, Coffee retension enema, Flagyli 6 day pulse, Thyme Thujanol twice a week
OK Paul
Thanks for that explanation
DAILY: NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , CoQ10 200 mg, vit D3 2,000 IU, multi vits, Folapro, Doxyi 200 mg. 2 or 3 PER WEEK Astaxanthin, Azithromycin 250 mg,B12, Coffee retension enema, Flagyli 6 day pulse, Thyme Thujanol twice a week