BBP or BP/GD

Submitted by katman on Wed, 2007-08-29 11:05
As Joyce has said "What a bizarre group we are". The title of this blog stands for: Blog By Proxy - Blood Pressure/Gum Disease. For years Dr R (Richard) has fought bad breath and gum disease with meticulous attention to an heroic dental routine and visited the dentist alternating with the periodontist for a total of 6 times a year. His gums have inexorably receded and bled. Several months ago in a matter of a few days, his bad breath disappeared, becoming almost overnight as sweet as a baby's. Last Thursday, we made our trek to the "big city" 50 miles away (where I met ExRacer) and while we discussed MS, the mouth care-takers were peering into Richard's mouth and exclaiming about the improvement in his gums - gum pockets much less deep and greatly reduced bleeding. "Don't stop whatever you are doing, but Rica wouldn't let you, anyway!" Well, WE all know what he is doing! Blood pressure is still a hope but even if it doesn't respond like David's and become normal this is SO worth it! Richard began with tepid compliance about 16 months ago and when I asked for better a year later (read threw a tantrum) he, just to make me happy, did just that. He did increase Vit D, took his C0-Q10 and the rest that were deficient, and did much better. Now he coughs and suffers through increased nausea and has curious "aches and pains" during flagyl, which I think and hope, having been there, are all symptoms of his own personal battle with the bug - or one that has caused severe problems and is falling - that has proven itself to be in residence. Rica

Rica,  Thank you for updating Richard's progress.  Ron, if you're reading this, it would be good to have an update on your Dianna too.  Richard sounds like a bonafide member of the Generally Falling Apart group, and we need more reporting from that bunch.  It's a critical thing to get that gum disease knocked out.  As you know, it can make the rest of your body suffer, especially the heart.

I feel silly asking this about a physician, but is Richard taking enough magnesium?  Just thinking about the BP issue.....

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, antivirals, heavy metals chelation, LDN, Metanx, Lunesta, GF/CF diet, Lauricidin, oral IgG/lactoferrin/IGF-1 booster, gamma oryzanol, astaxanthin.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, antivirals, heavy metals chelation, LDN, Metanx, Lunesta, GF/CF diet, Lauricidin, oral IgG/lactoferrin/IGF-1 booster, gamma oryzanol, astaxanthin.

Wow, Rica!

 

 

 

What a wonderful example of how meticulous dental care is to no avail, if  one is harboring infection!

 

 

 

 

 

This was true for me, as well. And, I know that I would never have become as sick as I was, had I not been focusing on mercury replacement and chelation, instead of infection.

 

 

 

 

 

Tantrum? Image removed.

 

 

 

 

 

I sincerely hope that Richard will be able to treat his BP, and any other conditions, as successfully as D W has!

 

 

 

 

--Minai

 

 

 

 

RRMS, diagnosed 2/04. NAC 4/06. Started Wheldon/Stratton regime 8/30/06. Doxycycline, 8/06, Azith, 10/06. Switched to Roxithromycin 11/06. Psuedo relapse/die-off with hospitalization 1/07. Gad-enhanced MRI of brain and spine shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY Restarted CAP with NAC and Doxy 2/07. LDN 4/07. Stopped NAC, started Roxi, again 5/07. Now on full doses of Doxy and Roxi. NAC, again, 7/07. 1st Tinidazole Pulse, 8/11/07. USA

 

 

 

 

Wow Rica, I am with Richard - my gums were in horrible shape. My dentist was so happy with my improvement - he gave me information to give to my doctor in regards to treating gum disease with doxy. This is one of my improvements as gums are much better and I have not had any cavities since beginning abx. On Wheldon protocol for MS since April, 2006.  doxy 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyl Pulses start end Sept., LDN 2004

5oo mgs Ceftin 2 x/day, 500 mgs Zithromax, 500 mgs 2 x tini pulses,100 mg diflucan, 4.5 ldn; Wheldon protocol for MS April, 2006 to May 2008. 2008 MRI shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY, 2012 MRI no new disease activity.

This is all so interesting - another surprise disease (but only sort-of surprising). Truth be told, usually patients are put on Doxy ONLY and frequently for only a few months when at the finish, most of it comes back. So, Minai and Wiggy, we have won a round even if nothing else happens. The gum part we can see - that is bad enough - but the REALLY bad part is hidden: heart and arteries, and probably some other things of which we are blissfully unaware until the brick falls.

<> And, Joyce, good question that brought me up short. I haven;t checked magnesium levels for a while. I did on our current bottle. We have been taking one pill, as usual. This bottle says: dosage 3 pills per day - mag. with chelated zinc. 3 pills makes 400mg mag/15mg zinc. The only thing that will happen is that Richard will look at our "Centrum Silver" and say: this is 67% of what we need and the mag pill makes 100%. End of discussion. So, is it enough? I can't find the chart that I took everything from in the first place!

 

Rica PPMS EDSS 6.7 at beginning - now 2. Began CAP Sept, 2004 with Rifampin 150 mg 2xd, Doxy 100 mg 2xd, added regular pulses Jan 2005. Jan 2006 switched to Doxy, Azith, cont. flagyl total 44 pulses NC USA

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

D W

This is a very significant observation on periodontal disease and likely C. pneumoniae infection. Many people with MS have recalcitrant gum disease also. I guess there is a vasculitic root to periodontitis; this has been raised in the past [Nikolopoulou-Papaconstantinou AA, et al., Deposits of immunoglobulins, complement, and immune complexes in inflamed human gingiva. Acta Odontol Scand. 1987 Jun;45(3):187-93.] Vasculitic phenomena are associated with MS, from Fleischmann's observation in the 1860's that small inflamed vessels could be found not only in the axis of MS plaques but in adjacent normal-appearing white matter, suggesting that vasculitis preceded demyelination. Retinal vasculitis associated with MS was reported in the 1940's, and may be seen in some 20 - 30% of people with early MS. I have noted a previously unreported association between episcleritis and MS. (This looks like a mass of bloodshot vessels in one or more corners of the eyes; there may be an associated gelatinous mass, designated nodular episcleritis. It occurs between the conjunctiva and the sclera; there is no pus and usually no pain, even though it can look painful link) It's probably actually quite frequent.

Periodontal infection is polymicrobial; the halitosis is likely caused by Peptostreptococci sp which smell foul. Another periodontal pathogen is Porphyramonas sp, specific genes of which (in association with those of C. pneumoniae) have been found in atheromatous plaque. The antimicrobial regimen devised for C. pneumoniae should kill the lot: as Raymond Chandler might have said 'that should just about bust the crib.'

Tantrums work. They certainly work. So do occasional sulks. Actually, from my perspective, the rare sulk, skilfully applied, is the more effective.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now; just supplements and IR sauna. Morning BP this am (29.Aug.07 108/75]
D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

David, thank you... that was beautiful. As always, you give us new knowledge and (useful for the future) ways to manage recalcitrant mates (did I really say that?).

 

Rica PPMS EDSS 6.7 at beginning - now 2. Began CAP Sept, 2004 with Rifampin 150 mg 2xd, Doxy 100 mg 2xd, added regular pulses Jan 2005. Jan 2006 switched to Doxy, Azith, cont. flagyl total 44 pulses NC USA

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

Thanks DW & Rica....

I had to have a tantrum this morning & I have been softening up my spouse to the protocol.  When he sees me really sick I am sure he has his doubts.  I have mentioned in the interest of reinfecting me he should go on it.  I will get him started on NAC before the end of the year or before if I have the energy to give him the NAC nag! "take these, let me see, are they gone???" lol

Blessings

Ruth

CFIDS/ME 25yrs, FMS, IBS, EBV, Cpn, (insomnia - melatonin, GABA, tarazadone, temazepam, novocyclopine, allergy formula, 2 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NAC 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 250 mg M/W/Fday, 8-21-07 1st pulse 1 X 250 mg Metro

CFIDS/ME, FMS, MCS, IBS, EBV, CMV, Cpn, H1, chronic insomnia, Chronic Lyme, HME, Babesia, Natural HRT-menopause, NAC 2.4 gm,Full CAP 6-2-07, all supplements+Iodorol, Inositol-depression, ultra Chitosan, L lysine Pulse#27 04-19-10 1gm Flagyl/day-5 days<

But, Ruth - the pocket is not a good place for them! "Gone" is not good enough! But I think you have a really, really good idea.

Having said that, I very seriously say that when a person starts, if he has bad, long-standing "stuff" like hypertension or heart problems which apparently go along with gum disease, evidently being mainly a matter of degree, he/she should stay with it, especially NAC and the very protective supplements. I would imagine that the body, having gotten used to being much better, would rebel violently to being tossed back. I wish David would address this potential catastrophe. Maybe it should be a Forum Topic.

 

Rica PPMS EDSS 6.7 at beginning - now 2. Began CAP Sept, 2004 with Rifampin 150 mg 2xd, Doxy 100 mg 2xd, added regular pulses Jan 2005. Jan 2006 switched to Doxy, Azith, cont. flagyl total 44 pulses NC USA

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

I am curious as to who the sulker might be in the Wheldon household and who the sulkee would then be? Cleverly worded, David, without giving a solid clue. Raymond Chandler would be proud... Rica, what great news! Several of us have noted those little semi-solid white spitballs of stench have disappeared and our breath is clean now. Interesting that it happened to Richard without his having been forewarned of the possibility. (I always fear telling friends about the 'NAC flu' before I start them on NAC, expecting a self-fulfilling prophecy to manifest itself.) But, between the breath and the tangible gum improvement, there's no mistaking Richard's changes for the result of mere suggestion. So cool!

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.  Mohandas Gandhi

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

D W

Thanks, Rica; there's a growing consensus that gum disease is a harbinger of systemic illness. Here's a link to a page about porphyromonas sp. link. (I call myself a microbiologist and I miss-spelt this organism's name in an earlier post.)

'Tantrums work. They certainly work. So do occasional sulks.' A Chandlerian flatness, not too far from poetry. Flat poetry, though. Who sulks and who takes the sulk? That's your question. Why, Mack, we address it as needs must. Surely you knew that.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now; just supplements and IR sauna. Morning BP typically 105/75]
D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

The best way of getting somone else out of a sulk, I have found, it to have an even more flagrant sulk, especially if you don't feel like sulking yourself.   Tantrums only seem to work in our house if used very sparingly.

Michele (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP1st May 2006 . Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, Flagyl at 400mg for 7 days prior to 5 day pulses at 1200mg three weeks cycle. Spokesperson for Ella, RRMS Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

Michèle (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, metro pulse.

I don't think Ron did an update for me so I'll try:

I have been on Doxycycline (2x a day), Azithromycin (Monday, Wednesday, Friday- 1 tablet) and Flagyl (twice a day for 2 days out of 7) since January, 2007. I started all three at the same time. I am also taking N-Acetyle Cysteine daily. During January, I had two migraines (down from 4 or 5 a week). It is now August and I haven't had one in at least two months. My dry eyes are better - although not completely. When I started the meds my eyes watered so badly that my coworkers thought I was crying all the time. The watering has stopped, they have quit their constant itching and are not nearly as light sensitive as they were last summer. My GERD has improved to the point that I no longer take the prescribed Acephex (which wasn't working anyway). I rarely have reflux - which was constant prior to beginning the meds. It was so bad that I was eating Tums like they were candy. I haven't had a Tums in two months. My blood pressure is back to 117/78, and my cholesterol is down 12 points from last year. The Roseatia is gone - completely! I can even drink a glass of wine with no flushing! The congestion/asthma like breathing problem is completely gone too.

Now, if only this protocol would help me lose weight!

The doctor who is prescribing for me said I will finish the antibiotics this year - December is the plan.

 

 

 

 

Dianna, I have dry and itchy eyes, migrains (I have to take migrain-meds every day ) and high blood pressure  (last two years, before it was always low or normal). It will be very interesting to se how the combined antibiotics protocoll will help me - it did help you! 

 

"Odhilda" Diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrom 1999 not able to work or study since 1993. Mekobalamin(B12) injections.  Levaxine. Sweden is my home and Swedish my first language. NAC 900 mg.

"Odhilda" CFS, not able to work or study since 1993. Mekobalamin (B12) injections 10mg x12/month. Levothyroxine(T4). NAC 500-850. Started Doxy Sept-07. Started Roxi Nov-07 first Metro-pulse March-08. Swedish is my first language.

On the subject of coinfections, is there anything that would need to be added to the CAP, in order to eliminate Helicobacter pylori? The combination antibiotics used for H. pylori seem to be pretty similar to those used in the CAP, but sometimes they add bismuth (Pepto-Bismol) or stomach acid suppressors (e.g. Zantac or Prilosec). But I can't tell whether those are necessary.

(Why would one want to eliminate H. pylori, if one doesn't have an ulcer? Well, for one thing, it's correlated with a higher rate of stomach cancers.)

Norman,  H. pylori has also been found in arterial plaques.

Dianna,  Thank you for chiming in with an update.  I'm so glad for you that you aren't living with the migraines anymore; what a deliverance!  The improved eye dryness, light sensitivity, reflux disease, and cholesterol really push my button---can't wait.  I don't know whether or not I have Rosacea.  If I do, it's not bad yet, just increasing splotches of broken blood vessels and pinkness around my nose, eyebrows, cheeks, and upper chest.  Is that Rosacea?

Joyce (self)~Generally Falling Apart:  Potbelly Syndrome, Sjogren's symptoms, morning imbalance and cognitive problems, etc.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, antivirals, heavy metals chelation, LDN, Metanx, Lunesta, GF/CF diet, Lauricidin, oral IgG/lactoferrin/IGF-1 booster, gamma oryzanol, astaxanthin.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, antivirals, heavy metals chelation, LDN, Metanx, Lunesta, GF/CF diet, Lauricidin, oral IgG/lactoferrin/IGF-1 booster, gamma oryzanol, astaxanthin.
D W

Norman,

this combination should be effective against H. pylori; one would have thought that the length of treatment should wear down even partially resistant strains. One might even speculate that H. pylori only becomes pathogenic when host systems have become damaged by C. pneumoniae. Such speculation may be supported by the observation that H. pylori is acquired in childhood but apparently remains dormant until ulcers appear in adulthood. (Aquisition of H. pylori in adulthood is apparently uncommon.) It's interesting to note that C. pneumoniae and H. pylori gene-sequences have been detected in the same atheromatous plaque.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now; just supplements and IR sauna. Morning BP typically 105/75]

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazole. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Dianna,

This is the wonderful news we have been waiting for and hoping about you.  All of those symptoms that you have/had are falling to the refined battle plan that is enabling so many of us to "do" the protocol and still function.  Thank you - is there any chance this could be made into your blog?  It is important and should be seen and not lost in the comments. 

 

Rica PPMS EDSS 6.7 at beginning - now 2. Began CAP Sept, 2004 with Rifampin 150 mg 2xd, Doxy 100 mg 2xd, added regular pulses Jan 2005. Jan 2006 switched to Doxy, Azith, cont. flagyl total 44 pulses NC USA

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abx protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxy 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyl 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMS EDSS 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

Red

Hi Dianna,

This is indeed wonderful news. Congratulations! I'm so glad to hear you're doing so well. And it's nice to hear that your rosacea cleared up with CAP. One more piece of evidence for the link between rosacea and Cpn (at least for some of us rosaceans)...

Here's to continued improvement for you over the next few months. Keep us posted on your progress...

On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosacea 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NAC since 07/07 and daily FIR Sauna since 08/07

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-
Red

Hi Joyce,

Those "broken blood vessels", sort of a misnomer for abnormally dilated blood vessels or telangiectasia, are associated with rosacea and actually several other diseases (see associated conditions here for some), and the "pinkness" you mention might also be indicative of rosacea. It sounds to me though as if you're describing symptoms of rosacea subtype 1 (Erythematotelangiectatic Rosacea - kind of a mouthful, huh?). See pics here. Degrees of redness and telangiectasia assoicated with this subtype of rosacea can vary from person to person (and can progress with time).

Note that Astrodiana reported that many/most of her rosacea symptoms including the visible blood vessels disappeared with anti-Cpn treatment here. I had many visible blood vessels removed with IPL treatment prior to CAP, but the few that came back seem to have cleared up on CAP just as Astrodiana mentioned. Hopefully you'll find the same thing soon...

I have noticed that when I get a big die-off reaction still, some rosacea-like symptoms appear for a short period again, but disappear very soon after. For all intents and purposes, my rosacea symptoms are now gone, but I'm still very careful about how aggressive I am with my current regimine. Too much die-off, caused by too high a dose of Vit D3, or too aggressive use of FIR sauna mostly gives me fatigue at this point, but it also can stir up rashes and a very mild version of some of  my old rosacea symptoms...

Hopefully, you'll be in similar "rosacea remission" soon too...

On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosacea 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NAC since 07/07 and daily FIR Sauna since 08/07

Treatment for Rosacea

  • CAP:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NAC:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-

Thanks Red.  Looks like you hit the nail on the head:  type 1 "ETR" with a bit of type 2 thrown in.  It's still very mild, but has increased over the past several years.  After my first pulse a few weeks ago, some of those tiny blood vessels looked so vivid, it seemed they would pop right through the skin.  Until now, I attributed the pinkness and visible blood vessels to high blood pressure.  Wouldn't you know that someone with a history of chronic respiratory infections would have this in the skin overlying the sinuses, nasal passages, and lungs?  The little critters do tend to migrate to the surrounding tissues.  Thanks for the well-wishing; I hope to be walking close behind you, Richard, Dianna, Michele, David, and any other successful GFA-CAPer I'm forgetting in the coming months.

Rica,  I hope Richard is paying attention to all this miscellaneous GFA stuff you stirred up with his update post.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, antivirals, heavy metals chelation, LDN, Metanx, Lunesta, GF/CF diet, Lauricidin, oral IgG/lactoferrin/IGF-1 booster, gamma oryzanol, astaxanthin.

Joyce~caregiver-advocate in Dallas for Steve J (SPMS).  CAP since August 06, antivirals, heavy metals chelation, LDN, Metanx, Lunesta, GF/CF diet, Lauricidin, oral IgG/lactoferrin/IGF-1 booster, gamma oryzanol, astaxanthin.

sorry Kat, what I meant about looking in his mouth was to make sure he has swallowed the treatment & vitamin capsules in case he tucked them in his cheek & then spit them out when I wasn't looking. 

Image removed.

I should use the smileys more often to better say what I mean.

 

Blessings Ruth

CFIDS/ME 25yrs, FMS, IBS, EBV, Cpn, (insomnia - melatonin, GABA, tarazadone, temazepam, novocyclopine, allergy formula, 2 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NAC 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 250 mg M/W/Fday, 8-21-07 1st pulse 1 X 250 mg Metro

CFIDS/ME, FMS, MCS, IBS, EBV, CMV, Cpn, H1, chronic insomnia, Chronic Lyme, HME, Babesia, Natural HRT-menopause, NAC 2.4 gm,Full CAP 6-2-07, all supplements+Iodorol, Inositol-depression, ultra Chitosan, L lysine Pulse#27 04-19-10 1gm Flagyl/day-5 days<

Norman Thanks for the question on H Pylori and David thanks for the answer. It is something that I was wondering about. Since I have so much trouble with my oesophagus, my stomach and my intestines I'm always looking around for possible explanations for those symptoms and H pylori is one that crossed my mind even if it did not cross my stomach.   So knowing that I have that one covered means I can cross it off my list...

Michele (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP1st May 2006 . Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, Flagyl at 400mg for 7 days prior to 5 day pulses at 1200mg three weeks cycle. Spokesperson for Ella, RRMS Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

Michèle (UK) GFA: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxy, Azi MWF, metro pulse.

Rica well done on getting your husband to comply   Image removed.    it's wonderful to hear that he's doing so well.

I would love to have some lessons from the tantrumers and sulkers as I too am finding it very difficult to persuade my husband to  consider the CAP  for rapidly encroaching GFA.  At the moment he's impressed with my progress but I think he's waiting for me to win the olympic gold for skiing before he'll be convinced that it really works  (but that means he won't start until 2012 so by then he might have more of a fight on his hands)

 Elinor ..... from England  on CAP, doxy/roxi/tini  for ME/CFS/lyme borreliosis, positive Cpn and borrelia. Started Aug05, stopped Jan06, started again Sept 06.

Elinor ..... from England  on CAP, doxy/roxi/tini  for ME/CFS/lyme borreliosis, positive Cpn and borrelia. Started Aug05, stopped Jan06, started again Sept 06.