Antibiotics and Herxing
I have been using antibiotics off and on for about 3 years to treat mycoplasma and unknowingly Lyme. I have been tested for Cpni by PCRi, and came up negative, but I guess that doesn't mean that I don't have it. Symptoms match, but they also match the other stealthy stuff I have. My family is very sick and my mother has a diagnosis of MS and likely Lyme so knowing this info is no doubt relavent in my life. Cpn fits her very much. She has asthmai and numerous lung infectionsi every year.
I have been sick for a minimum of 25 years and my bacterial loadi is no doubt very high. I was one of those who actually looked deathly ill. Very skinny, hair falling out, grey in color, I was wasting away. I had pain from head to toe and the fatigue was crushing.
I was started on 200 mgs. of Doxyi a day. Nothing happened until day 8 when I became as weak as a kitten. My heart rate went to 140 resting and my BP dropped to the floor and was unreadable on my home cuff. I had been previously diagnosed with VTach and my cardiologist sent me immediately to the ER, and to go by ambulance if I couldn't get a ride.
I was checked out and all looked normal other then lowered potassium. I was sent home and deicded to not take any more of the ABXi, just in case it had been that. I had read about herxing prior to starting the ABXi, but it didn't dawn on me for a few days that what had happened was indeed a herx. Needless to saw I am rather afraid of taking the larger doses of ABX since then.
I did some research and found the Road Back Foundation where I learned about pulsing ABX and contolling the herx by reducing the dosing. I fiddled around with the ABX at various doses and found that to start I could tolerate nearly nothing.
My doctor swithced me to Minocycline as it seems to be tolerated better and I now know that I will herx on as little as 2 1/2 mgs of Mino. It seems to accumulate in my system and by about day 8 again I will be herxing. The joints of my feet and ankles swell, and I become achey and fatigued, with alot of brain fog.
Since my first experinece with herxing I have become very leary of max doses of ABX. I herx on everything meant to target this stuff including Diflucan which may also kill Lyme. Tried Cipro and got vertigo so bad, it felt as if I was going to spin of the face of the earth. I had to crawl for help.
So I am wondering what you guys might suggest or should I keep up what I have been doing? Considering the fact that because of the herxing I have actually used minimal ABX, I have managed to achieve about a 95% remission and I look healthy. I know I am still full of pathogens because I still herx whenever I touch anything. I still have problems with brain fog, tinnitusi is still there and eyes are puffy and dry. And I guess most important is that my heart is still irritable and I was recently put on a beta blocker to slow my heart rate down.
My mom and daughter are starting ABX very soon, and I am a bit concerned up my mom 's reaction to ABX in light of my own reaction. She is on Avonex now, so I don't know if that might possible prevent the herx from being so severe.
Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.
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200mg doxyi daily, 500 zithromax mwf,flagyli 1000 m-fri.rifampin 2x daily,chloestryramine 2x daily
Mini- It's very important that you slowly build up doses, and that you stay continuous on the antireplicatives (more than one) to prevent creating resistence, and that you eventually also build up on flagyli/tinii pulses. But slow!
It would be important to slowly build from 2.5mgs minoi to whatever is considered a full dose, then in the same way add another abxi, even in minute form, and build it up to full dose. When you stop herxing at a low dose, that just means you've reached tissues which that concentration can reach. Stopping and starting antireplicatives will tend to build resistance, which will result in rendering those abxi ineffective over time. You also have to work towards the full abx protocol with flagyl/tini pulses, for either Cpni or Lymes, otherwise you leave the bacteria in some form in your system to reinfect. Likewise with NACi.
Also, if you react that strongly to diflucan, that immediately, it is more likely to be yeast not from the Lyme's, at least as I understand it. Schardt's theory about diflucan and Lyme's is that it interferes with the spirochete's nutritional metabolism, and this takes a while to effect them-- months. You don't get immediate die-off with it. But you do with diflucan and yeast. So if you work on yeast problems you will likewise feel like crap for a while, but it will really help your whole program. Dr. Powell likes Oregano Oil for this.
I was also very high load and very sensitive to herx, although not quite as low dose sensitive as you. I was on tetracycline 3 months (first two weeks were hell), then doxyi for a month before adding zithro. Then it took me a month and my first flagyl pulse was one pill!
There is another alternative approach discussed in Dr. Stratton answers some questions which is pulsing INHi and Flagyl together, while doing NAC continuously. You would have short periods of strong herx, but could build up to longer pulses and eventually a full course. I don't know if INH has any anti-Lyme's effect, so you might continue on the mino (building up slowly) add NAC, and then try short pulses of INH and Flagyl together. Stratton's Rule- you have to kill all three phases.
On Wheldon/Stratton protocol for Cpn in CFSi/FMSi since December 2004.
CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral
Thank you Lee and Jim for your reply. So much to learn and I am trying to do this while packing for a move accross states. Lots of new terms and med names, so I am feeling a bit lost. INHi is what? Is it the tinizidole? Also, the penicillamine, is it a penicillani?
Jim in, my experince with Diflucan it is very similar to the way I herx with both Doxyi and Minoi. It seems to take several days to build in my system and I end up feeling really crappy by about a week. The one thing that I find most interesting is the swelling in the joints of my toes and ankles. My feet get red, feverish and hurt like crazy. It happens with the Doxy, Mino and Diflucan. Also, I know yeast is a problem, but when I take other antifungals like Nirzoral, I don't herx to bad at all.
My daughter who is also Lyme positive reacts in the same way, so I don't know. I would love it if you could point me in the direction of your understanding on how Diflucan might work on Lyme. Finding that kind of info has proved difficult since usually what I find is in German.
Mini- INHi is an antitubercular abxi with strong antichlamydial effect. It is an antireplicant antibiotic. Tinidazole is like metronidazole (flagyl) and is used against the cryptic phase of Cpni, and both these also kill the cystic form of Borrelia (Lyme's).
I don't have any info on Schardt's diflucan protocol any more that I can find. My recollection is that it takes at least a month to start having effect on Borrelia. We tried it for a while with my daughter where there was suspected Lyme's but it ha no effect, she is now diagnosed with Cpn, so I understand why. The Cpn meds truly wipe her out, but that's because they are getting at the right bug!
The Cpn protocol should be effective also for Lyme's , the only added thing is the NACi (used now instead of penicillamine or amoxicillan against the EBi phase of Cpn), and that's good for protecting your liver anyway. Both Lyme's and Cpn have really toxic die-off, so if you are killing both you are getting a double whammy and have to go slow. The charcoal and vitamin C are crucial for this, as are some of the other supplementsi.
I can't imagine trying to organize this info while trying to move, brain fogged, aching. Take it slow!
On Wheldon/Stratton protocol for Cpn in CFSi/FMSi since December 2004.
CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral