A horse and a zebra, but a donkey too???

Submitted by MunchMan on Tue, 2011-02-22 00:59
I just pulled in about 2 hours ago from my LLMD in Lubbock. Tired from the drive and my left ear is ringing from the 12 hour highway noise. I left his office with a Bartonella clinical diagnosis and a DNA lab with Brevundimonas vesicularis detected in my capillaries. WTF!?!?! There is not much information on B. vesicularis infection because human infection is slim but it can infect by an abscess tooth. B. vesicularis colonizes in yellow or orange color and is found in water sources. So to the point, I had an abscess tooth in late '08 with a root canal done in Dec '08. Our shower, in my home, grows orange (what i thought and still might be mold) colonies; it's only the shower and has been that way since we moved in in 2007 and still continues to grow. Could this be B. vesicularis? I don't know at this point, but I'm calling my biology department at college to see if they would be willing to find out.  The LLMD explained that since the tooth was capped with a root canal, it's now possibly a reservoir for this bacteria, dripping into my blood stream like a leaky faucet. My immune system was/is so busy fighting this off, Bartonella was able to come in and take over. He believes with my symptoms, I had Bartonella; the DNA test couldn't read the low levels so he believes we have it low enough. He also said that many people are infected with bacteria like what we talk about here, but it is only when your immune system is compromised that it can flourish. My next step is to get the root canal removed from a special dentist that specialize in these situations and then stop abx. From there we will see how I do in two months, one month after the stopping of abx. If I need to get back on abx, then that's what we will do.  Everyone, I think this makes sense. Everything started after I had the root canal. The fevers, the numb face, the Cpni, the so on and on and on all started shortly after it. My "MS" or Bartonella symptoms started in Aug '09 with ON and just went straight up from there, especially when the Bart/Cpn combo weakened my veins and broke the BBB (that's when I had the ice pick headache that lasted for 5 minutes). It also explains my hives and other things that increased like crazy over the last few years. So, there is the LLMD's opinion.   My opinion is a horse (Cpn), a zebra (Bartonella), and a donkey (B. vesicularis). Any questions out there about my visit, feel free to ask. Christian


P.S. Not so many State Troopers out there this time =)


Christian, Thanks for continuing to blog here and I hope you will continue to share your journey with us.  I am still enjoying the benefits of low level Lithium Orotate that your comments caused my exploration on that adjunct and subsequent addition to my supplements.  I decided not to get a phototherapy light box this year taking low level Litium Orotate was a good alternative for me.

The better I feel the less time I spend reading about chronic bacterial (viral, yeast  etc) infections.

How long a treatment do you think it took to get clear from the Bartonella?  It is not spoken of much here but is of course another rather common pathogen that makes folks really ill.   Many of the folks that believe that their primary infection is Borellia B. (Lyme disease) eventually find out that Bartonella is a major player in their illnesses in addition.  You did not mention Lyme what did you blood work show about that, was it tested at this point?   What are your symptoms that are characteristic of Bartonella if you are willing to share your take on it from your understanding?

I would be interested in hearing about what dental procedure can be done without loosing the tooth, perhaps the tip of the root will be removed, just a guess.  That is when you see that dentist of course.

With the  B. vesicularis is it that human infection is slim or that it is often not tested for and therefore not found a bit like C.Pn.? 

Why does he want you to stop abx?   That is my most probing question that I might find issue with.  You are on rifampin still.   That is an ace in the hole abx and to start top it can well be asking for trouble with resistance developing.   The rule of thumb that I understand about it is that if you stop it you should stop it for as long as you have taken it before it is restarted.   And to take it without another combo abx adds to the development of resistance.   Just what I recall but thought I would add it for consideration when you decided what to do.    What is to be proved by stopping.   With RRMS as a dx for you I do wonder if stopping after less than a year is in your best longterm interest when I think of the stories of folks who thought they were done because their symtoms seemed to have gone into remission only to in another year or so have a resergence.    So please explain for me and yourself a bit more of why it is wise to stop now if you will since you asked for questions.

What other organisms have you been screened for since you have been doing testing, which many folks do not have the benefit of in their treatments situations?

Glad you made it home safely, long trips for treatment are tedious but as many of us know necessary.


My problem with many LLMDs is some can be all over the place stopping and starting stuff.  

Are you using google scholar to do your searching regarding B. vesicularis?   http://scholar.google.com/

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support


Great questions! I love the fact that you are liking the Lithium. I do too.

I've been on Rifampin for 5 months. Lyme was tested but not found. I had about every symptom on bartonella, especially the foot pain and recurring fevers.

The dentist question I don't know. He gave me 3 dentist to deal with and I don't know why. I'm calling him today to ask if I can just get it pulled from my dentist.

What I have found about B. vesicularis is that it is very uncommon to be infected in the first place. It is not transmitted by a tick or bug, it's found in water. The abcess tooth makes perfect sense. I had a hole in my mouth letting everything in.

We are stopping abx because my levels of Bartonella are low; the abx have worked and as long as I get the root canal pulled, the chronic infection should be gone allowing my immune system to take over and do the job. This is under the assumption that my immune system has been compromised by the B. vesicularis. This is why it is important to get the root canal pulled ASAP, continue the abx for a month, and let my body do what it needs to after that. He explained to me that everyone has a bug or two; it's only when your system is compromised that these bugs flourish. If my immune system is better, then this should work.

I am going to speak to my original MD and see if he confirms with this or do we continue on with the abx. I also found that B. vesicularis can be succesfully treated with Cipro, which I haven't taken.

I have been tested for everything under the sun in the world of Lyme. Borrelia, Bartonella, Anaplsma, Treponema, Coxiella, Ehrichia, Francisella, Rickettsia, Brachyspira, and Mycoplasma.

I hope these answers help.


Started CAP on 06/29/2010 for RRMS. Dx w/ Brevundimonas Vesicularis in Jan '11 hiding in #20 tooth with root canal. Extracted 04/04/2011. Clinically dx with Bartonella at the same time. Recently found MPn.

Abx: 100 mg Doxy bid<

Christian, I just suggest you slow down a bit and go back and read about the chronic nature of C.Pn. and Bb.  Many folks with Bartonella get it as a co-infection with Lyme.  Lyme becomes untestable after a period of time unless the test is done after a strong course of kill level Bb sensitive abx.  An antireplicant level such as is used in the Doxy 100mg BID is anti-replicant not bacteriocidal (killing level of abx).  My hesitation for you is that you have the RRMS dx.   Now this dental thing and that infection if you can spare the tooth loss may well clean up fast.  However the RRMS is a bigger deal and has the perpensity to possible continue on the dreaded SPMS.  Many here treating have moved to this level, why go there if the CAP can hold you in remission?   Just my thought.   And a month on abx after the extraction that seems a bit on the short side as well.   Since it took me a long time to find a treatment for my unrelenting fatigue I guess I am a person who might be cautious.   However I have been reading here since June 2007, and was very active and for a period of time also had to go to self treat mode as I searched for an MD to write scripts and support this CAP.     I have read both the CFS and the MS blogs and seen people come and go make progress stop abruptly and slide completely back to incapacitation.  

I would suggest you continue to read more and move more slowly.  It is great to think that you are cured but supported remission with your amount of treatment and disease dx is more likely in my observation of reading here.    Just some thoughts to consider.    Personally I do not have the dx of MS however I have seen it close up, my cousin died in a coma of it (or not in a coma just totally unable to communicate for many years!)

Just my off the top of my head thoughts in response to your post.   Chronic illnesses are not straight forward and if you have made progress, consider that you can well have several things going on at the same time.       Have you read my blogs and others blogs here?   It does take time but your improvement may not be as direct and and as simple as you might wish.

In any case, whatever you decide to do regarding cessation of CAP,  I wish you success in healing.   Louise

  • CAP(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFS
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDN 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

There are some odd bugs in the teeth arent there? I cultured veilonella once  FROM A SURGICAL SITE abcess in peritonitis... yet its supposed to be a dental bacteria. How did it get all the way to my appendix I will never know.

















MunchMan, I hope you have an opportunity to do some reading on the removal of teeth that have had a root canal. 

 It is highly recommended to use  a holistically-oriented (IMO) dentist who understands the burden this has been placing on your body as well as the repercussions of pulling it (ie the release of these toxins into your body).  

"Regular" dentists can pull it but may not take the necessary precautions, check for cavitations, and after care (Vit C IV and or chelation), etc. which will instantly release all of the nasties into your body when the tooth is pulled.

A good place to start is:  http://www.iaomt.org/patients/search.aspx

and: http://www.hugginsappliedhealing.com/

Hope this helps.


JeanneRoz ~ DX'd w/ CPN 4/2007; 6/07 -"officially" dx'd w/CFIDS/FM; also: HHV6, EBV, IBS-C, 100 Doxy:BID; 500 mg Biaxin BID; Tindamax Pulses, B12 shots, ERFA Dessicated Thyroid,Cortef, Iodoral 25 mg, Vit D-6,000 uni


Thank you for the input. That's exactly where I'm going to have it removed is a holistic dentist. The LLMD gave me 3 dentist that he approved of and I made an appointment with one in near Austin, TX on March 21st. I did speak with my dentist and they suggested that I do what the LLMD said to do because of the nature of the situation.

I'll let you know how it goes.



Started CAP on 06/29/2010 for RRMS. Dx w/ Brevundimonas Vesicularis in Jan '11 hiding in #20 tooth with root canal. Extracted 04/04/2011. Clinically dx with Bartonella at the same time. Recently found MPn.

Abx: 100 mg Doxy bid<

Christian, good that you know the enemies (I am not unfamiliar with the zoo, or is it the djungle, feeling)! Perhaps the bartonella explains your improvement from Rifampin.

I hope removing that filling will literally pull the plug for the remaining bugs! 

Good that the troopers had better (?) things to do. Your comments make me think about driving to the LLMD in Germany, the journey includes de-restricted stretches of Autobahn which in August wasn't appealing as it used to be (I even dismissed the idea of renting a car at the airport).

Borrelia/Cpn arthritis: joint, skin, eye, CNS, respiratory, UG involvment; fatigue. Borrelia Elisa&WB IgG, and CPn IgG and IgA pos, HLA-B27 neg. CAP 5/9/2010 -> 3/2016 2017: some signs and symptoms returning, Borrelia?


I wanted to reply to your posting. I agree with you 100%. First off, I will not allow my health to deteriorate quickly. I have enough prescriptions to continue on the protocol for at least another 2 months after the LLMD stops it. I also have my PCP in my back pocket and I keep him abreast of my progress, my LLMD dx, and any ideas that may come about. I am very blessed to have to him. My last conversation with him last week helped confirm that if things go astray after the tooth extraction, he will still be there to help and continue with what we have done.

I spoke with Dr. Stratton through email. He didn’t offer much information except a report on B. vesicularis. I will attach it to this blog. It concludes that the infection was caused by an abscess tooth. Endocarditis is possible with this pathogen (which was the subjects chief complaint), which could explain my recurrent fevers, chills, fatigue, etc. It can cause septic arthritis, which could explain the sudden jolts of pain I have been feeling in my joints. I have been saying since December I think the Lyme is coming out. Only my confusion centered with the arthritis pain was thought to be Lyme and not B. vesicularis. My daily hives could be explained with this as well. I’m starting to believe the bacteria itself is not what causes the hives, fevers, dizziness, but how bacteria in general interacts with your organs and what causes the dysfunction. It was one of those “Duh!” moments. I think that’s why so many bacterial infections look the same and that correlation with MS, CFS, Fibro, et. al looks so similar. Again, taken from Lyme theory, bacteria take turns on being the dominant force. Hypothetically, Bartonella and Cpn hiding, B. vesicularis is here and is in full force.

I wonder if I shouldn’t go to an infectious disease MD with B. vesicularis. I am concerned about not being prescribed the correct antibiotics to fight this bacterium. I would like to somehow get all these MD’s to talk to one another about my situation to come to a conclusion. I guess that is a utopian health care request.

In regards to the SPMS, that is a concern. I believe I was already there; the RRMS started in May 2009. There was a straight incline of symptoms starting from April 2010. June was by far my worst month and with the advent of abx, symptom progression stopped or slowed down and once Rifampin was added in October, I doubled my well being since then and more. I was losing my ability to walk (leg weakness), couldn’t sleep, I was in a stupor (brain fog), among other things. The thrice optic neuritis has subsided for now and a recent examination shows no scaring of the optic nerve. Bartonella (and possibly B. vesicularis, not cited) causes inflammation in the optic nerve due to thrombocytosis, not demyelization, according to a paper I found on Bartonella. Hopefully this explains my ON and the decrease of vision with the onset of higher blood pressure when I drank highly caffeinated drinks.

 My symptoms are quick to see starting with the fevers, as I saw abandoning Doxy/Azith/Rifampin for a week in November to do another abx. Within days after the fevers, dizziness appeared. If any of these come about after stopping abx, I will start my abx immediately and go to Plan B and C to continue the Doxy/Azith/Rif and/or find an infectious disease MD to treat the B. vesicularis and treat Cpn.

I’m still not opposed to B. vesicularis being the cause of most of my issues. Every bit can be connected to the root canal; I don’t know how much predisposition counts. I must first get the tooth extracted, get rid of the causing agent so my immune system can rebuild itself. If that is with the help of our protocol here, I’m okay with that. If I lose it and nothing happens, I’m okay with that too.

I tapped my tooth after my LLMD drive and sure enough, I feel it. It’s a dead tooth and shouldn’t cause any feelings yet since then, I feel it every day. Just feels weird, like I have something stuck around my tooth. A couple of days after I posted this blog, I remembered the extreme diarrhea that hit me immediately, within hours, after the root canal. I believe this is when it entered my body. I called my dentist the day of my root canal and they never heard of this happening before. I passed it off.

The interesting issue about B. vesicularis is that in 2006, there were only 8 people that were reported with this infection to that date. With this being said, it is extremely rare to be infected with this bacterium and the reports show it can cause havoc in the system, penetrate the CNS, and I suspect possibly cause CCSVI among doing other things. Not much information has been collected to examine this bacteria’s potential to cause havoc which have all started at the point of a root canal.

I believe and will always believe that most of our auto immune diseases are bacterial based. It will only take time and us lab rats to help determine that.

I appreciate your words and kindness that has made me reconsider leaving abx’s behind. The last thing any of us want is the dreaded progression. I still consider abx the drug of choice with MS, and most likely always will.

Started CAP on 06/29/2010 for RRMS. Dx w/ Brevundimonas Vesicularis in Jan '11 hiding in #20 tooth with root canal. Extracted 04/04/2011. Clinically dx with Bartonella at the same time. Recently found MPn.

Abx: 100 mg Doxy bid<